Diablo 4 - Economy/Trade/Self-found/Blizzard MMO system views

My Background:
When I was 15, played D2 heavily for around 2 years (2002 - 2004, patch 1.09D mostly) but quit altogether at the start of 2004 when University life took over. Played it quite heavily, highest level chars were a 94 traps sin and a farmer sorc. Outside of playing CS competitively at local LAN events or online scrims, D2 was my go-to chill out game.

Similarly with D3’s launch almost a decade later, I have played the game to the same level of enthusiasm despite all the changes from: eg. Arena matchmaking pvp mode -> Brawl // RMAH -> no RMAH -> Trading only in party -> Soulbound loot. Despite all the changes, I’ve stuck with the game even having the occasional blast on the PS4 console.

Outside of the type of isometric ARPG style of both games and their titles, I acknowledge D2 and D3 are inherently very different styles of games made from developers with different views, and that’s okay.

The issue I have is that recently, a vocal majority of the playerbase have come to define what the Diablo franchise should be. Whenever someone brings up PVP or trade, I read an overwhelming responses say “That is not what Diablo is about, Diablo is all about slaying monsters and getting loot.” I believe what has actually happened is that the people who loved Diablo for it’s PVP and/or for it’s trade have been outcasted and have all but left the playerbase and the franchise - leaving only those with the same collective thoughts to discuss details on loot and other gameplay aspects they find enticing. It’s almost as though the parameters for the game has been set for all future iterations - and it’s a bit disappointing that these fields will no longer be explored.

From a recent post last week by D1 and D2’s lead designer - David Brevik, he said:

“We wanted to make a legitimate online version of Diablo, where there’s a real economy and you can trade items and it means something,” Brevik said. “That was one of the biggest motivations; seeing how people loved Diablo, but being very critical – and rightly so – about how things had been going with the online part of the game.” (source: gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-08-21-diablo-2-the-human-cost-of-making-a-classic)

At the very least we can acknowledge there are very different views as to what the Diablo franchise can be and we shouldn’t try so hard to define what Diablo is or isn’t.

My personal view is that the Diablo team has recently taken many aspects from WoW’s system and vice versa - collectively known as the Blizzard MMO system (talent system, mythic dungeons/greater rifts, soulbound items, 2 hour trade with party limitations, etc.). With D4 being more of an MMO, there’s even more incentive to take daily/weekly quests and put them into D4 which I am personally against as that is what has discouraged me from playing WoW (although it is my most played game for over 15 years).

I’m sure the Blizzard MMO system will be great for the longevity of the game as there will always be people grinding and the combat mechanics always feel fluid and fun BUT I don’t think it will be fun for many players past the first few months.

I hope the Diablo team really takes D4 and innovates with it rather than just borrowing systems of the past/present. The RMAH was a great example of innovation, albeit with a set of negative impacts. But take risks please and think less about how do we create endless repetitive playtime for the grinders out there but more how do we create meaningful, diverse, fun and engaging playability.

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Do you enjoy when someone cheats at CS against you? That’s what trading brings in Diablo series - cheating. If you can’t realize that I’d suggest you search the forum for all the big trading threads - it’s explained there.

Diablo is about randomness. Static daily/weekly quests as in WoW/HS have no place in it.

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This is exactly what I mean.

You’ve attributed certain systems to define what should or should not be. Trading = Cheating = Not Diablo. You have made these links almost effortlessly to the point that it’s not even your fault anymore, just a by-product of what you’ve been accustomed to.

I’m personally against daily/weekly quests but I wouldn’t go to say it has no place in Diablo and Diablo is about randomness. How about breaking down the systemic pros and cons of these systems rather than slapping on some arbitrary, self-entitled label.

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Yes. Non-parodical game design excludes cheating.

Just as this forum excludes trolling. It’s one of its rules.

We (the posters in this forum) have already done that many times regarding these topics. That’s why I suggested you to use the forum search function.

Welcome to the forum btw!

So rather than spend the effort of coming up with some ideas of your own, you spend that time with your witty remarks and condescending attitude. At least you can feel good about yourself.

I mean if your next response (if any at all) could actually just address the primary PRO of having free trade as it existed in lets say D2, it would perhaps show you’re not as prejudice as you make yourself out to be. If you could exercise the self-control to just make your response on that, it would go a long way.

I can personally state the primary CON being that people will spend alot of time on the AH interface as opposed to slaying monsters.

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Yes, I can. When you go through the topics yourself and understand the legit points of the others you’ll start feeling good too.

You can start reading from here:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/search?q=trading%20min_post_count%3A50

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You can also start doing some reading here: What We Owe Each Other - T M Scanlon

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O really? You remember what those people said, but do you remember what they were responding to? “Diablo is about trading”, that’s what they were responding to (and no, I personally never used either of the argument). So by your logic, a vocal minority of the playerbase have come to define what the Diablo franchise should be. I hope irony is not lost in you.

And for the record, what majority defines it is more suitable than what minority defines it. But to be fair, this is a D3 forum. You are bound to have more people aligned with how it is with D3.

Yeah, I agree. People saying Diablo is all about trading or all about PVP or anything is incorrect as well. Irony isn’t lost on me.

I’m just saying that rather than saying what Diablo is or isn’t about - like all the previous posts on this (you can literally look at previous posts on this and it’s just people being completely polarized), how about we discuss pros and cons and see if there are workarounds on a common ground.

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Trading is not cheating, per se.

What is cheating not Diablo: the ability to get all the neccessary components for high-tier end-game with out playing the game.

I’ll follow your train of thought here - For someone to gain the necessary components for high-tier end game without playing the game, they would have to use real-world resources (eg. money or time via botting) to achieve this. I also think this is hurtful, not just for Diablo but for any game. Which is why games try so hard to stop botters, 3rd party real-money trading.

So conversely, would it be acceptable for someone to actually play the game, gain the resources required to trade into high-end gear then obtain that gear? (In an ideal world where botting/real life trading doesn’t exist).

What I’m trying to say is: Is trading the real problem? Or just a confounder from all the limitations trying to make it kosher?

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Yes, that’s why you have crafting. It replaces everything trading offers without the idiotic parts.

It pretty much has been among players. But point is, Blizz already decided (for now at least) that they will be no open trading (full on trading) in D4 but a restricted trading. To what extent, we don’t know yet. And majority of players here agree on that, something like in D3, something like in WoW (tradable mats, lower tier BoEs, craftable items, etc). It’s the other side that wants none of it (they want full on open trade). It’s them that don’t want workarounds I would say.

Which idiotic parts?

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The parts that allow the experienced players to take advantage of the incompetence of noobs and thus cheat the intended character progression in the game by playing the trading game instead of the actual game.

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Yeah that’s fair. A compromise is right but I believe they can do better or be more innovative than what WoW has been doing all along.

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Trading is not good because it makes the game a trading simulator…

I play PoE and most of the time im trading rather than playing the actual game…

Im just trading and farm currencies cause 98% of the weapon/armor loots suck…

I don’t want Diablo to be like that…i want to feel excited when im fighting monsters (doing rifts/maps etc.) so sometime an awesome legendary item could drop !

I don’t want to farm currencies and i don’t want trading… I want to farm GEAR LOOT !

SSF is superior in PoE… but its not the efficient way to play and gear because they made both drop rates from both standard and SSF the same , so the most efficient way to gear is to trade…

ps. and most people in Diablo 2 didn’t trade and they were just playing with PlugY which is basically a good SSF mod. (MrLlamaSC plays with it all the time)

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So you’re saying trading is bad in a game due to the social construct of experienced players preying on less experienced players and having them make bad deals? Ruining the experience of these less experienced players?

That’s a fair point. In the same way as someone in WoW is griefing others in low level zones. Not sure if it is all encompassing as you make it out to be though.

I recall a similar argument for not releasing damage meters in Diablo as that would cause the community to shard itself. So they just withheld the API on that. Still not sure if I agree censorship/removal of that information rather than letting the public the normalize itself (or fear thereof) is the correct avenue.

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The noob rarely understands his mistake. What’s ruined is the competitive aspect of the game. I thought you’d understand that since you said you played CS competitively…

Yeah I spent SO much time in D2 on the trade forums. Watching the deals scroll by and waiting for that Tal-Rasha chest for 9 soj appear or someone looking for SS, Skullder’s, Shako so I could make a few soj’s.

But I also spend alot of time farming to sell those items. It felt like a nice balance to me but I understand if that’s not what everyone wants to do. But that’s what Diablo 2 was during 1.09D at least.

I think D3 made the drops exciting but as we can all tell, there’s a limitation where drops increasingly diminish in excitement value - especially if there’s no trade. But that may be more inherent to flaws in drop rate and ease of access than trade itself.

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