Diablo 4 - Characterization Versus Itemization

Hi everyone, I have been a long time fan of Diablo and wanted to weigh in as the managers and D4 team have been showing great communication and listening of the community.

I recently played through an “offline” playthrough of each Diablo and wanted to share some ideas about what may help progress the genre and D4 specifically

I personally found that the system in Diablo 1, although simplistic, has been the best version of the games characterization and Diablo 2 had the best Itemization. Diablo 1 allowed you to focus on a character while leaving you the ability to be a jack of all trades. This game characterization made the experience unique in that you could be a Fire wall warrior, or mana shield rogue, or a melee sorcerer using a sheild, sword and telekinesis.

Diablo 2 presented us with a new unique experience adding more uniqueness in characters but less jack of all trade effects until runewords came. The loot system (which is by far the worst in 2) was nice because it left you hunting for more to complete your character but also allowed your character some customization with end game items like enigma. The detriment here was that eventually many items like Enigma or Hoto were BiS for every build in some capacity.

Diablo 3…Too easy, Too much power creep, Forced customization. The system became terrible over time however there are pieces of this that i think should make it into D4.

The main point of this soon to be long thread is that perhaps designers and players alike have been viewing the development of a character in the wrong manner. Diablo 2 presented us with items that COULD be used as endgame despite being lower levels due to the stat spread that an item could have for you. I think that the formula in itself combined with Diablo 3s unique character skill changing items may be the right direction for itemization on a small scale. I say this because i believe it may be in the best interest that the developers work on the characterization of a character to be on the character itself and have items be a unique addition to your already built character.

For this i want to use the Barb as an example. Looking at the skills across 2-4 i can see that the barbarian has had a lot of options in builds spanning across each game. 2 allowed for many fun builds such as a shout barb, ww, and from an item side; a Werewolf build. 3 Expanded skills giving us, hammer, earthquake, ancients, ETC. What i am hoping is considered is that my character building allows me to really hone my skills through my dedication leveling my character and planning my skills, stats, traits, etc and not having to plan whether or not i find the best version of a rare, legendary or mythical.

The skill tree would be as follows.

Whirlwind --> Option 1: WW with tornadoes, Option 2: WW with earthquakes, Option 3: WW with Bleeding effect

Option 1: WW with tornadoes --> Option 1: Increased damage and size, Option 2, increase amount and decrease size, Option 3: Same size add pulling debris effect.

Option 1: WW with tornadoes --> Option 2 Increase amount and decrease size --> Option 1: Knocks back enemies, Option 2: Stuns Enemies, Option 3: blinds enemies.

Option 1: WW with Tornadoes --> Option 2 Increased amount and decreased size --> Option 1 Knocks back Enemies --> Option 1 Demonic, Option 2 Angelic, Option 3 Ancestral

Option 1: WW with Tornadoes --> Option 2 Increased amount and decreased size --> Option 1 Knocks Back Enemies --> Option 1 Demonic.

Skill would Read: Whirlwind Summons multiple small tornadoes knocking back enemies XX distance and upon killing an enemy, will cause the enemy to explode in a bloody explosion for XX damage in an XX radius

My whirlwind build example could go on but basically my skill building and strengthening of those skills is tied to this tier system. Adding more and more pathways to each initial skill creates uniqueness in builds. What becomes important is that items DON’T add strength to one aspect of the skill but the skill as a whole OR variations exist where the skill can be modified to increase effects based on the build path chosen. Say i choose WW with tornadoes that are smaller and knockback. An item may increase the knockback of the tornadoes when small. Or may increase the radius of effectiveness. This is only an example.

In addtion talents could be used to enhance certain effects of the skill. Increase WW tornado speed, increase duration a tornado lasts, Tornados now travel in a circle or straight line.

In line with the newly added angelic system, the end of each skill tree would have an upgrade that matches Demonic, Angelic, or Ancestral

Demonic: Adds explosion effect when enemies die
Angelic: Heals Barb a flat amount
Ancestral: reduces damage dealt by enemies.

Again just as examples. The main point is that my focusing on a stat on gear is due to the effect it will have on my skill build and not the effect that the item itself is giving me. I also think that a system like this allows me to live a certain build fantasy without being locked into finding a Skorn and or the legendary affix modification item to a rare. The most important piece is insuring balance of a skills performance in the options you take and NERFING skills that have too much power or are over performing to ensure that the overall progress feels gradual and meaningful. Choices shouldn’t be easily rerolled through a simple click and instead either earned through some kind of conquest or created through remaking the character through a prestige like system.

There’s my thoughts please read and comment back. There is no TLDR for this and if you made it this far let me know why or why not a system like this would be good/bad and what else could be done to further modify how we experience Diablo 4.

7 Likes

Yes there maybe BiS items but I also don’t want to need them to make my build it’s big thing to get right

Yes I prefer Nerfing over power creep any day.

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I’m not sure if it has been discussed here before, but I’d say Last Epoch’s skill web is one of the best compromise of Diablo II’s skill tree and passive skills with Diablo III’s skill runes (and passive skills too). It combines both yet creates complexity and depth that neither had.

Just for reference, check here:
https://forum.lastepochgame.com/uploads/default/original/2X/9/95c1158ac7aedb8c46a9644e70cb9a34edc8938b.jpeg

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Funny that you mention this. Last Epoch’s Skill tree is kind of where i got the idea i think as i read about this recently. However I think a fair blend of item and skill building is essential. Even hybrid skills with items to make things interesting but again not for the sole purpose of power but instead effect.

3 Likes

I think you hit the nail on the head (at least for me) in terms of how character development via skills should have a bigger impact on how you define your character versus having items define the build. I think this should be a baseline element for D4. It beats the hell out of not really playing the way you want to play until you find the item that defines your build later into the game. Let it be an experience where you start defining your character at level 1, and flesh it out as you go. This promotes a stronger focus on character identity via the journey towards the endgame. Once we reach the endgame, let it be a search for items that fine tune/cap off your build, then once you hit your goals, go ahead and make a new character (or possibly respec in a “limited” way) to a new build.

This promotes long term replayability in my view. Good post. I like it!

2 Likes

Yes! Exactly that! I am glad that my post was easy to understand. Hopefully Blizzard embraces this concept because itemization while important shouldn’t be the only way. I like the idea of enhancing a skill or adding additional effects to make a skill unique through the tree first and an item second. Let items help diversify other systems like the types of damage output with breakpoints on things. I.E. higher cold damage = more freezing. A barb should be severing limbs, a wizard controlling magic in unique ways, a Druid being able to really modify nature or his animals or what animals.

2 Likes

This brings questions about the legendary and set modifiers that was first introduced in Diablo III. The working system of Diablo IV revealed so far include:

  • Skill levels
  • Legendary modifiers that add/change skill functionality
  • Talents (a combination of Diablo III’s passive skills and Diablo II’s skill tree and skill points systems)

The focus of endgame is seemingly still centered around legendary items. Characterization comes in the form of talent progression that has branching nodes and skill progression through spending points to increase skill level/rank.

I wish skill progression not involves unlocking skills but also each skill has its own branching paths, where each node either increases the skill’s attribute (damage, duration, radius, etc.), changes an aspect (from physical damage to magic), or adds/changes functionality (skill is now channeled, spawns skeletons, etc.). Skills should have trade-offs and opportunity costs, not just pure gain.

Yes and by trying to get to the end of a tree in the short term you will not get all skills in the tree, later and maybe much later you can try to get all skills and become a Jack of all Trades.
Trying to do the Jack of all Trades thing from day one of leveling will be there but I would expect if you are not going deep in to one or two skills the damage maybe to low to handle the content you find.

1 Like

I agree with you both. This is why i think my system, or a variation of would be good because you make a meaningful choice leading to a worthy build that allows for both customization and unique gaming experiences.

Skill trees for all skills seems like a good idea indeed.
And I agree the 3 Powers (angelic etc) would be a good fit for having 1 customization option for each skill.

Another way (not necessarily excluding skill trees) could be to tie different parts of skills to different stats.
Like above

Whirlwind Summons multiple small tornadoes knocking back enemies XX (DEX) distance and upon killing an enemy, will cause the enemy to explode in a bloody explosion for XX damage (STR) in an XX radius (INT)
So, 3 different item stats (and maybe attribute points) to influence this specific skill in different ways.
Other skills would be influenced differently by the same stats - and it would not always be Str = dmg etc.

Itemization and character progress is one thing. Diablo 3 is not easy. It is very easy to play and “progression” certainly may be simplified, however even with so-called “power creep,” it is difficult to make through higher level greater rifts. I would like to someday solo GR150 but that will likely never happen.

2 Things.

  1. @Shadout. I like where you are going but i don’t think dex, str, and intel is necessarily the right way since they are adding angelic, ancestral, and demonic. Instead i think based on the path you choose may help determine how the skill evolves. In my above example, perhaps the skill has 3 branches representing each of the new stats. Each tree then could have paths represented by those stats. Thus you can go “DemoniC WW barb” or a hybrid of all 3, or an “Angelic WW Barb”. They could make each tree intertwine so that instead of it being a unique tree per skill, and variation, They would have a Skill that has uniqueness on the polar ends, and hybridaization options that become available should you mix up the tree. This is so that playing balanced or focusing in one option are both viable and unique with variation while being less complex than the original idea i posted.

Again just a thought.

@ SunYata - So i respectfully disagree with the GR argument. See i think that inflated numbers is not truly a challenge. Time investment is the only thing (or some luck) is all that stands between a player and Max GR. But investing in a build isn’t really an investment in Diablo 3. Builds are handed to us relatively easily. Maximizing the build is the challenge but even that in itself is just a silly grind. Have enough paragon and gradually enhance gear with gems and you will reach GR 150. It just takes time. I don’t personally play and invest for this reason as the ultimate end is nothing for me. Every time i feel i have “beat” the game in some manner they increase the power creep thus making it that i never “beat” the game.

Diablo 4 should have a part of it that is Finite in it’s progression. They need to make the strength of monsters and progression behind your character be so that the adventure getting to the end is worth the time and getting to the end takes so much time that i want to invest in being complete. Not having an endless paragon or prestige system (unless its for cosmetic fun for those who want that.) The reason i played Diablo 2 so long was to Fine tune my build for unique content like Uber Diablo. The reason i return to diablo so much is to re-experience the grind and see how my character will turn out with skill books and such. Diablo 4 needs to bridge this and that is why i think the Skill system and character development is so much more key than item finding.

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Agreed. They are just names. Could be anything. Would make sense to use the Angelic etc. system.

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I appreciate the support Shadout but yes i think that using stats and organizing the skill system connecting to stats could help as long as it makes sense within the context of what the character represents.

well, they represent something
muscles, agility and knowledge
what does ADA represent? being on the dark side, on the light side or a grey jedi?

I guess. I dont really care about realism or lore in this context. Gameplay systems > everything else. So what names they decide to use for them comes pretty far down the list of importance.

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I too want to care about the “fantasy” of my characters development though the game.

I like your reply. Yes, there is a singular focus. Loot. Loot is unabashedly the star of the show in Diablo 3. A skill system and a character progression system have been distilled into class presets and items. Attribute points and skill points are not allocated. Item drops are not rare, however that “perfect roll” is quite elusive and despite the proliferation of loot it’s difficult moving up GR levels. Instead of staring at a skill tree deciding where to put my skill point I’m looking at an item deciding which property to enchant. Instead of allocating attribute points to my character I seek the gear that will optimize my attributes and selected skill set, all the while knowing that the longer I play the stronger I get because of the paragon system. I am free to focus on loot acquired by playing the game. Yes I am fine-tuning but what is that if not “gradually enhancing gear?” Take choices out of items and put the choices in a skill tree. Remove preset classes and merge skills. The focus is then on the character, which is apparently what many here want. Fine. But Diablo 3 is a great item focused loot-driven arpg game where playing the game and looking at the drops on the screen is the focus. With all that said, I believe the addition of the Legacy of Dreams changed the game substantially. It allows for the greater complexity and experimentation some crave because it frees us from legendary sets. It is still not a skill and character system but some complexity is introduced. I love Diablo 3 as it is. May Diablo 4 be what you want.

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Sunyata. I hear you. And for what Diablo 3 is yes it is a good loot driven experience with a pigeon hole problem that gets band-aid treatment over time. Ultimately I want to still be see the loot hunt and have meaning behind what and why I wear what I wear but I believe that in 4 a strong sense of character needs to be important for me to want to hunt loot. If they can Hannah Montana these systems that would be great