Diablo 3 requires a final balance patch

[Alexismad-1310]

@Shadout-2849

But even with good internal testing (so not what Blizzard is doing…) it wont be perfect at release. Balancing will need to happen as long as the game is being updated.

Never said perfection was what needed to happen. There are always going to be outliers. It wouldn’t be feasible to test for every single possible contingency.

I simply expect far more from a AAA developer. I am simply saying they are either erroneously over cutting costs on internal testing, the people they have in place are incompetent, or the people who can act on the testing aren’t acting on the testing. I would wager some or all of these things are occuring.

@Dimlhugion-1109

On the other hand, there are VERY few examples of completely finished, bug-free games.

And where did I say that?? Think I said:

@Alexismad-1310

It should be a relatively finished product.

and

@Alexismad-1310

and internally test the game to get decent balance.

As I replied to Shadout, I simply expect far more from a AAA developer. I am simply saying they are either erroneously over cutting costs on internal testing, the people they have in place are incompetent, or the people who can act on the testing aren’t acting on the testing. I would wager some or all of these things are occuring.

D3V was released in the same state as D4 was. It was nowhere near a finished or polished prduct. Rather than adding content to the game, the vast majority of development for 2 years was spent fixing bugs, fixing itemization, and badly trying to fix balance and difficulty in the game. Again, this is a main reason I did not buy D4, as I want to play the game and have content added, not be a beta tester.

@Dimlhugion-1109

That’s literally just a meme-level take, my dude. It’s some sort of ecletic mix of “back in the good ol’ days” and “always has been.”

At some point in the late 90s early 2000s, software companies figured out that they cut QC to save a ton of money and release partially to largely untested. They waited for users to find bugs/problems, then fix it on the fly. Over time, quality has only gotten worse and more and more games are being released in a beta state.

Were there bad games in the past released by AAA developers? Definitely. Are there great games being released by AAA developers today? Definitely. From what I have seen, though, the quality of games released today by AAA developers, in general, are not at the same standard.

@Dimlhugion-1109

The only transaction is fiscal. I promise you, if D4 hadn’t made money. As in, if people ACTUALLY didn’t buy it. Then the problem would VERY quickly fix itself.

D1 made money. D2 made money. D3 made money. D:Immoral made money. D4 made money. When they slap the Blizz logo on it, the game is make money.

Has it made the money they expected to make so far? My guess is not even close. They have put the game on sale 6 times in its first year for 25% to 50% off. Hell, it went on sale less than 60 days of release. They have completely redone the itemization and some game play. Obviously, they are doing things very wrong and desperately trying to fix things on the fly. Had they done proper testing and marketing research, the game would have been released in a much better state and they would be making a lot more money.

[Shadout-2849]

@Dimlhugion-1109

In the job market, we say we have a meritocracy, but in fact it’s just a mixture of nepotism and generational wealth.

Certainly the case outside of US too. Qualifications matter, sometimes, but lots of jobs are being give to people because they know someone.

[Zymurgeist-1185]

The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

[anon30358639]

@Kirottu-2131

No theme is balanced.

True, but ethereals were a horrid theme with some builds considerably underpowered because of no ethereal for them.

I find it amusing that some players are OK with this, but God forbid you lock paragon points for a season. It shows how biased and blind some players are. They don’t care about the game, they only care about themselves.

@Zymurgeist-1185

You mean the game should have challenge rather than blind luck and endless grind? I think people might faint.

absolutely. Clearing a GR150 should be the pinnacle of achievements, a rare event. Not a common day activity cos some builds are OP AF. Get rid of GR fishing too. As I have proposed several times, you get say, 10 times to get a clear and if you can’t, that’s it for the season. No 1000 keys or more to get that “perfect” GR with perfect mobs, map and pylons . That’s not skill, it’s paying the RNG.

@Dimlhugion-1109

Agreed on principle, but what do you do when MOST players are crying for powercreep? No players, no game, right? So at what point do you cross the threshold from idealism into pragmatism?

You tell them NO and grow a pair.

@MicroRNA-1507

One could simply increase the power of undeperforming sets and decrrase the power of overpowered builds.

That is probably the best approach IN reality, the damage in the game is all maths. Maths can be balanced.

@Alexismad-1310

The fact that builds have been wildly unbalanced when the PTR is released and then wildly unbalanced when they went live shows they do little to no internal testing.

10000% spot.

@Alexismad-1310

Too many people nowadays are conditioned that it is their job to live test and debug software for companies. I am a little old school and believe a multi-billion dollar profit company should invest a couple million dollars of that profit into product integrity.

I come from that same school.

@Dimlhugion-1109

First, solve the botting/hacking problem. Then, we can use leaderboards as a metric for gauging where we have balance concerns.

As I have stated on a few threads, PC cheating is NOTHING compared to the issues on PS4 and switch. PC is relatively a non-event in comparison.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t fix the cheating issues We should. But on ALL platforms. I’m a paying customer too (2 copies - 1 for me and my niece, and a digital copy for me, so 3 copies of the game). That’s more than MOST people commenting on this forum. I own 2 copies of the original Diablo, plus the GOG version on top of that, 2 copies of D2:LOD and 1 copy of the original D2 and digital for D2R. And 1 copy of D4 (which I regret). Expanding from the Diablo franchise, I also own a variety of SC merch. But, it seems that because I play on PS4, Blizzard doesn’t consider me a customer and ignores my (and pretty much every other console player) input. That is not how you maintain a customer’s interest.

@Shadout-2849

Don’t just blindly cave to each complaint the players have. The customer is not always right.

and as a customer, you will see us leave and lose income. VERY bad attitude for a company to make.

@Shadout-2849

Balancing is an iterative process.

Agreed. But Blizzard seems highly allergic to the process.

@naksiloth-1354

and a large team of focused audience in QA

I’m going to call BS on this.

@Dimlhugion-1109

when in fact it’s actually a democratic republic.

Hard no there. There are certainly far more democratic countries that the US. The US is a complete mess.

@Alexismad-1310

As I replied to Shadout, I simply expect far more from a AAA developer. I am simply saying they are either erroneously over cutting costs on internal testing, the people they have in place are incompetent, or the people who can act on the testing aren’t acting on the testing. I would wager some or all of these things are occuring.

Testing costs money. Shareholders, CEO and board of directors always want an ever increasing profit margin. You cut costs, cut staff, overwork staff and you keep doing that to keep profit margin increases on the rise. This is being employed by every software developer today. The bigger the company, the worse it is, since they can rely on reputation for sales. “people will buy the game based on our prior reputation” attitude. Smaller companies tend to lack said reputation and have to rely on quality. But, as the company grows, that quality gets shed.

@Alexismad-1310

At some point in the late 90s early 2000s, software companies figured out that they cut QC to save a ton of money and release partially to largely untested. They waited for users to find bugs/problems, then fix it on the fly. Over time, quality has only gotten worse and more and more games are being released in a beta state.

100%. Bethesda is 1 of the worst at this.

[Kirottu-2131]

@anon30358639

True, but ethereals were a horrid theme with some builds considerably underpowered because of no ethereal for them.

Yeah, some builds gain absolutely nothing from it. Any build relying on the 2 piece class sets gets shafted, like Valor FotH needs Norvald’s to work properly. Also all DH ethereals were ranged weapons, meaning Shadow got shafted.

Still, most builds did benefit from the ethereals. The non-benefitting portion of all builds was a minority. Sure, it’s not an ideal situation but the theme overall was far from horrid. It still gave a nice power trip for the majority.

[naksiloth-1354]

@anon30358639

I’m going to call BS on this.

Not gonna lie, that’d be on point for different reasons. QA staff is usually disposable and whoever still active probably given the job of testing monetized games, such as D4, D:I or new WoW content.

[Dimlhugion-1109]

@anon30358639

You tell them NO and grow a pair.

Great moral theory, but in the real world that rarely puts food on the table. Investors don’t like taking risks as a general rule, and alienating > 50% of your playerbase is probably going to be seen as a big risk.

@anon30358639

Hard no there. There are certainly far more democratic countries that the US. The US is a complete mess.

I think you misunderstood. I’m saying the USA is literally NOT democratic, both in practice and by technical definition. We’re a democratic republic that heavily favors coporatism and nepotism, with the occasional generational wealth sweetening the pot.

@naksiloth-1354

QA staff is usually disposable

That right there is a one sentence TL;DR summary for everything wrong with gaming.

[Jazz-2357]

@anon30358639

It shows how biased and blind some players are. They don’t care about the game, they only care about themselves.

So true. We have this amazing game with five different classes each with several great builds. Lots of possibilities for endless fun. Still some players only wanna stick to one class and one build every season and every day - and on top of that complain about it. So sad.
Wish you all the best

[anon30358639]

@Kirottu-2131

Still, most builds did benefit from the ethereals. The non-benefitting portion of all builds was a minority. Sure, it’s not an ideal situation but the theme overall was far from horrid. It still gave a nice power trip for the majority.

True, but it would have been very easy to fix this issue and add a few more ethereals to the mix, especially after feedback from the community during PTR for the patch/theme.

@naksiloth-1354

Not gonna lie, that’d be on point for different reasons.

Nope. Save money. All the major software vendors are doing this.

@Dimlhugion-1109

and alienating > 50% of your playerbase is probably going to be seen as a big risk.

alientating 50% of your vocal playerbase on the official forums. Meanwhile, your average player, who never visits the forums, doesn’t play set builds seriously, would all disagree. Very few % visit and post on the official forums. Probably less than 1% of all players. If Blizzard is listening to them, it’s doing a very bad job.

@Dimlhugion-1109

I think you misunderstood. I’m saying the USA is literally NOT democratic, both in practice and by technical definition. We’re a democratic republic that heavily favors coporatism and nepotism, with the occasional generational wealth sweetening the pot.

No, I got your intentions. Let’s just say if I owned hell and the US, I’d live in hell and rent the US out.

@Jazz-2357

So true. We have this amazing game with five different classes each with several great builds. Lots of possibilities for endless fun. Still some players only wanna stick to one class and one build every season and every day - and on top of that complain about it. So sad.

Why can’t I play a build that I thoroughly enjoy? Why can’t that build be balanced so that it performs equally with the other DH builds? it’s not much to ask.

[Jazz-2357]

@anon30358639

Why can’t I play a build that I thoroughly enjoy?

You can. As much as you fancy.

@anon30358639

Why can’t that build be balanced so that it performs equally with the other DH builds?

It has been buffed previously. Lots of other builds have seen a more dramatic development (de-development?).

@anon30358639

it’s not much to ask.

Looks like it is. And it’s too late now.

[Dimlhugion-1109]

@anon30358639

it would have been very easy

Before I presume too much, let me ask you, genuinely: do you have any experience with programming?

@anon30358639

alientating 50% of your vocal playerbase on the official forums.

Here’s the full relevant discussion:

@Dimlhugion-1109

@Shadout-2849

Blizzard, or any other dev, should do what is right for their game, not just what a few crying players want (which yes, sadly tends to be MOAR powercreep).

Agreed on principle, but what do you do when MOST players are crying for powercreep? No players, no game, right? So at what point do you cross the threshold from idealism into pragmatism?

We’ve already established the forums are a cesspool of whiny butts. WE are the whiny ones. You, me, Shadout, etc. And yes, to your and his point, if it’s literally JUST US that are complaining… Then yes, absolutely. Blizz should ignore us and cater to the actual majority.

Problem though is we’re assuming we are merely the minority. What if we actually ARE the majority voice, just expressed via a few representatives that actually care enough to put the sentiment into words?

Do we even KNOW which way the court of public opinion truly lies on this issue?

@anon30358639

Why can’t I play a build that I thoroughly enjoy? Why can’t that build be balanced so that it performs equally with the other DH builds? it’s not much to ask.

Because it’s nontrivial work to get every single nail appearing uniform in height along a functionally infinite fence. Reducto ad absurdim just to prove the point: if we LITERALLY had just ONE single class, with ONE single skill, and it was LITERALLY “press this button ONCE, to INSTANTLY kill EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE GAME, collect ALL loot at PERFECT rolls and LITERALLY WIN THE GAME FOREVER”

It still might not satisfy the people who want a challenging game. You see what I’m saying?

You can’t possibly account for all variables of the human condition. Therefore, true balance is literally impossible.

[anon30358639]

@Jazz-2357

You can. As much as you fancy.

I know.

@Jazz-2357

It has been buffed previously. Lots of other builds have seen a more dramatic development (de-development?).

Sure, but when the top builds are 20GRs up the road, and the s6 impale, post buff is still 10GRs behind, it’s not much, is it?

@Dimlhugion-1109

Before I presume too much, let me ask you, genuinely: do you have any experience with programming?

A tiny bit, but not a lot, no. I do however have 15 years IT experience, including dealing with developers on issues with software, and beta testing too.

@Dimlhugion-1109

Then yes, absolutely. Blizz should ignore us and cater to the actual majority.

the actual majority is the people not on these forums, who don’t play set builds, but amble along with hodge podge builds that underperform.

@Dimlhugion-1109

Because it’s nontrivial work to get every single nail appearing uniform in height along a functionally infinite fence

This is not true.

[Shadout-2849]

@Dimlhugion-1109

You can’t possibly account for all variables of the human condition

Luckily that is not a factor in balance. Only the elements in the game itself is a factor for that.

@Dimlhugion-1109

cater to the actual majority

Rather, the exact thing they should not do.

[Jazz-2357]

@anon30358639

Sure, but when the top builds are 20GRs up the road, and the s6 impale, post buff is still 10GRs behind, it’s not much, is it?

Maxroll’s non seasonal solo tier list has it in the A group, 5 gr levels below the S tier builds. Natalya’s is in the S tier. All other DH builds are in the A group, together with the majority of other builds.
The tier lists are not exact science but I guess that the developers are satisfied with the general “balance” this list shows (if they look at it) even when it shows that not all classes have an S tier build. To them A is “A-okay.”

(The Season 31 solo tier list has S6 in the group up to 15 gr levels below the top).

[Mattelot-1113]

@anon30358639

A tiny bit, but not a lot, no. I do however have 15 years IT experience, including dealing with developers on issues with software, and beta testing too.

While I agree with some things you’ve said, I’ll have to point this one out. We do not know how hard or easy it is/would be to program something into their games. We don’t know the processes required for anything to change. Even if you had a little programming experience, it’s usually not so simple as to go in and make a change. Some require an approval process, some require FMEA or data analysis.

Also, 15 years of IT doesn’t really qualify someone for experience with programming as that’s a separate entity. That’s not to impugn your experience or belittle.

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Dimlhugion-1109

@MicroRNA-1507

class set specific leaderboards?

First, solve the botting/hacking problem. Then, we can use leaderboards as a metric for gauging where we have balance concerns.kil

In terms of fixing cheating, I wish Blizzard did more; however, postponing balance changes for solving the cheating problem makes no sense to me.

Blizzard (and players for that matter) have the data for the class specific leaderboards. A developer can change the damage modifier on class sets.

If a class set is 6 GR tiers below, one could start by giving it a 3 GR tier boost in terms of damage. I realize that damage is not the sole modifiet that determines GR progresdion but that is aconservative start to balance.

[anon30358639]

@Jazz-2357

Maxroll’s non seasonal solo tier list has it in the A group, 5 gr levels below the S tier builds.

yes, that is post last buff. Before that, it was in B group and C group…so…and it’s definitely more than 5GRs lower than the S tier…

@Jazz-2357

The Season 31 solo tier list has S6 in the group up to 15 gr levels below the top

oh wait…this just proves my points.

@Mattelot-1113

We do not know how hard or easy it is/would be to program something into their games.

real world translation: we don’t know how crappy Blizzard’s coding is.

@Mattelot-1113

Also, 15 years of IT doesn’t really qualify someone for experience with programming as that’s a separate entity. That’s not to impugn your experience or belittle.

True.

[Jazz-2357]

@anon30358639

oh wait…this just proves my points.

One of your points is:

@anon30358639

Clearing a GR150 should be the pinnacle of achievements, a rare event.

And that is certainly true for S6.
Wish you all the best of course.

[Mattelot-1113]

@anon30358639

real world translation: we don’t know how crappy Blizzard’s coding is.

You are right, we don’t know. It could be crappy coding, it could be incompetence, it could be lack of priority, or it could be allocation of resources.

[anon30358639]

@Jazz-2357

And that is certainly true for S6.
Wish you all the best of course.

with perfect gear, mega paragon, augments and lgems at rank 150 and 1000s of GRs fishing, it might be possible. I personally doubt it. i highly doubt it.

@Mattelot-1113

You are right, we don’t know. It could be crappy coding, it could be incompetence, it could be lack of priority, or it could be allocation of resources.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it’s pretty crappy quality coding. It’s very typical of the proprietary software world. I like my odds.