🏹 DH Balance Proposal - Come Look

The Top DH builds are already several GR’s behind the majority of the other classes. Leaving them untouched and buffing others to match those will still leave DH’s at the bottom. No one likes to feel “weak” in an ARPG, and thus no one will roll DH. Look at the current state of DH’s now in seasons. It’s pretty pathetic.

The proposal listed is to bring many builds up to par, not just the top builds for more options. Most builds that are mentioned are very popular builds that DH’s have always wanted to play with in a serious manner. There are more interesting ways to make builds “fun”, but with how blizzard is approaching balance and buffs, it’s better to be more straight forward given devs time and resources available. Obviously not all changes would go through, if any at all, but it gives an idea of what the community would like to see if they read through all of these with reasonable thought.

As for passives, I disagree. The new changes implemented fit the theme of the class. One also has to understand that with the current meta, pull and AD is nearly essential for top clears. DH’s are terrible at doing so, with no real consistent ability to make use of AD to it’s full extent.

Because of this, DH needs to hit with a bit more oomph to make up for this weakness, especially at ranged since that’s the initial design of the class. Squirts necklace was designed for range classes, yet DH’s have no viable way to prevent unavoidable damage from constantly resetting it in it’s current kit. Having a passive to help with a shield would do wonders. Having it on a weapon with the class being forced to use dawn doesn’t help us at all.

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S21 will be giving DH a new set. Hope it does not disappoint, or at the least give OP some love and give DH something to be happy come next season.

The only addition I’d make here is buffing the two damage runes of Vault (Trail of Cinders and Action Shot) either as part of the skill itself, through the Danetta’s Hatred set, or via another legendary affix. Those runes don’t need to be viable as primary damage-dealing skills at GR130-140+ necessarily (like the others you outline), but GR120-125 would be nice instead of Vault (when it comes to damage, not defensive) just being an enabler for dropping the Rain of Vengeance cooldown on a Natalya configuration or similar.

I go into detail on how the game already sets the expectation that Vault can be used for damage and what kind of buffs would be meaningful here: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/vault-the-fantasy-of-action-shot-trail-of-cinders-with-danettas-hatred

Three changes that would go a very long way:

  • Add the following legendary affix to Lacuni Prowlers: “Each time you damage an enemy with Vault increases the damage it takes from your next Vault by 100%.” (for Trail of Cinders, this is per-tick, so maximum 15; for Action Shot it is per-arrow, so maximum 4 by default, but see below)
  • Add the following legendary affix to a Ring: “Vault - Action shot shoots 1 additional arrow for every 10 Hatred you have.” (This would intentionally allow for more stacks when combined with Lacuni Prowlers.)
  • Increase the Danetta’s Hatred damage bonus from 800% to 4,000%.

This might seem like a lot, but Vault does pitiful damage as it stands (even with the 800% multiplier). Even with these there would likely still be a performance gap, as it means trading off a valuable neck slot.

For example, compare the following:
  • These items together, using Action Shot as the reference, allow you to do a maximum of +17 arrows at >170 Hatred (Blood Vengeance passive, Paragon Hatred), or +425% more arrows. (That will decrease as you keep spending Hatred.) After your first Vault, subsequent Vaults against a single target would get +2,100% added damage. (It is worse against generic mobs where the arrows aren’t all stacking on a single target to maximize the bonus). That gives 5.25 x 22 x 41 = 473,550% Total Damage Bonus x 300% WDMG = 1,420,650% eWDMG, with auto-crit, approximated at x2 over not having auto-crit, for 2,841,300% eWDMG.
  • Natalya’s with Danetta’s using Vault for damage gets 14,000% added damage from Natalya and 4,000% from Danetta, for 141 x 41 x 300% WDMG = 380,700% eWDMG, with auto-crit, for approximately 761,400% eWDMG.
  • UE using Vault just to trigger Vengeance can get 86 Discipline x 350% Damage = 30,100% added damage (x302 damage) and a separate 60% Damage multiplier (x1.6 damage) = 48,320% Total Damage Bonus applied to 400% WDMG = 193,280% eWDMG. I include this as reference because this is currently possible as it doesn’t use an adjusted value for Danetta’s. No one is lining up to use Vault as their damage skill with UE.

The proposed items are 2,841,300 / 193,280 = 14.7 times stronger than what is currently possible via UE. This is 3.88 doublings, or approximately +19.39 GRs vs. using Vault as a damage-dealer wearing UE currently.

The proposed items are 18.66 times stronger than what is possible via Natalya’s+Danetta’s currently (using 800% for Danetta’s). This is 4.22 doublings, or approximately +21.11 GRs using Vault as a damage-dealer.

If you wanted to factor in the Hatred-based Vault (being 4x less resource-intensive) to both the proposed items and the Natalya+Danetta setups, you could, but it doesn’t actually change the damage, even if it makes the skill less costly to use, so I left it out of the above.

The proposed items cannot combine with Shadow because Danetta’s Hatred uses two hand crossbows, so you can’t use a melee weapon, so I left that set out. It also doesn’t combine with Marauder’s, so I left that out. (And while Marauder’s boosts Vengeance more than UE does at 3 or more active sentries, I didn’t use Marauder’s as a comparison because trying to combine sentries and Vault as a playstyle is just … yeah, no…)

While they could combine with Natalya’s (adding about 6.85 more GRs worth of damage), that would eliminate being able to use other items, like Captain Crimson’s, which means losing about 3 GRs worth of damage from its own bonus, as well as being harder to keep up with the Hatred cost of Vault.

And while they could combine with UE, the only bonus they would gain from UE is the 60% bonus, because the Discipline-based bonus does not apply to Vault. That’s about 3.39 GRs but would come at an additional gearing opportunity cost to wearing 3-4 UE pieces over other items.

Right now, as a comparison, Natalya’s Rain of Vengeance can deal 16,356,000% eWDMG from RoV - Anathema with Hellcat Waistguard.

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I wish other strafe builds (without grenades, I hate grenades) were viable.

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We’re in week 6 of the season and seasons last roughly 13 weeks. PTR is usually opened a month before the season ends and, if recent announcements hold true, they’re going to be two weeks long from now on. So, that would mean PTR would be in weeks 8 and 9, i.e. a week and a half away. If that’s the case, they’ve already designed the new DH and Necro sets and any amendments to legendary powers / new powers on items that don’t currently have one. So, whilst the suggestions are interesting, I suspect it’s way too late to get them into 2.6.9

The one I’d love to see come back is UE/Grenades. Increasing the damage from Hunter’s Wrath is a good start but an increase to the multiplier on Hellcat Waistguard would also improve it massively, without the need to amend UE (and thus buffing MS inadvertently).

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A wild DiEoxidE has appeared! :slight_smile:

Pffft. It isn’t like MS is going to get you top clears anytime soon. It’s at what, 132 tops right now? And you’ve got to fish like a madman to get a rift you can clear at that level.

And how often do you see a DiEoxidE stamp of approval on suggestions like these? Not very often, that’s for sure.

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You put alot of thought and care into this post, and I very much appreciate it! I’m anxiously waiting to see what’s in store for us. Blizz will see this post, and it will be a good representation of what the DH community is looking for. Thank you DiEoxidE! :+1:

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I can’t take credit for this. I merely just provided the outlet via my stream for DH’s to congregate and discuss DMKT’s rough draft. He was the one that did the vast majority of the footwork through personal testing and math. His final draft is what’s posted here after we gave our feedback with knowledge of what many DH’s have posted/yearned for over the years. Hopefully it covers what a lot of the community would be excited to see.

Cheers to DMKT.

True, though I almost expect there to be a delay due to Covid-19. Most suggestions made are affixes in which the code already exist elsewhere in the game, or just straight up number tuning, but yes you’re correct. It is improbable that anything mentioned would make it, but I guess it’s worth a shot :slight_smile:

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I’d like to see the sets defensive bonuses bumped to 60% as well since we’re not monk / sadder / barb despite being Dex class.

Make Wraps of Clarity 80% and Ring of Elusiveness can stay at 60%, all builds will use generators (except RF) but not all use Elusiveness. RoRG is mandatory for several builds, and we are one of the few classes that can make use of focus+restraint.

Maybe bump MS dmg increase on Yang’s and DML to 350-450%?

<3

On paper they can be somewhat playable but haven’t tested their viability beyond T13.
Stinging Steel look promising if you pack it with Sash of Knives and Valla’s for piercing Strafe hits. You may need to abuse Fortress 1h xbow and Shi Mizu cubed for a weak homing dps like Strafe to deal any meaningful damage.
I’ve seen people using Rocket Storm but I have no idea how would that work even in T13, it’s been a long time. Other skillrunes are just plain or unusable.

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Nice write up. Some things I don’t agree with but I think most changes are fair. Here is a few things I would change:

I don’t like the idea of having a ring that gives both toughness and DPS. 80% DR is also a lot, but I guess it’s fair that it gets a buff considering what wizards and barb have. However, instead of adding attack speed on top of the toughness, I would go with a more reasonnable movement speed buff instead. It also ties in nicely with the name of the item “Elusive” → hard to get → movement speed… Would be more fitting IMO.

Same, I don’t think WoC should get a damage buff like this. The only current item that gives both dmg and toughness that I can think of is orb of infinite depth, and it’s 20% damage not 50%. And with a cooldown skill which requires a bit of build-around, unlike just using a generator.

I really like that. Actually, I would even go further: Attacks grant you an absorbe shield blabla. While you have a shield, gain 30% armor. That way, it’s always up, and synergizes with a support monk for example (which is a good thing, because the more group play synergy you have, the more likely it is you can do group content).

Should add frozen to this list.

I would keep it to 30 seconds. Most builds already rely on 16 seconds rotations to use CoE with max efficiency. I think it’s a nice change of pace to keep it at 30 stacks max. It might even enable the build as a trash killer in groups, with close to no lag generated because it’s only one big hit every 15-30 seconds. Also, it helps maximising AD use and rewards skillful gameplay.

10 yards of what ? The impact ? Isn’t it already the case ? Or is it smaller ? I don’t think I understand what the second part of your change means.

I would change it unchanged but change the way the wolf/boar buff work. If you have 2 wolves, you should get the buff twice (30%). 3 wolves, 45%. 2 DH with the cloak, 90% buff. Maybe add a second boar to the cloak as well, but don’t buff zoei’s secret then.

Across the board, I think your passives buff are way too strong. Custom engineering does way too much with 50% cooldown. Maybe add it to something else less useful instead. People can then decide if they want the 50% cdr or not. It’s not like it’s required for sentry to work.
Ambush is already a very strong passive, maybe 70% instead of 75% but come on, this passive doesn’t need to be buffed.
Archery - 18% multiplicative ? WITH upsides ? Talk about overpowered. 8% additive is useless I agree, but I think 10-12% multi is plenty, especially considering it’s so flexible. Same, 100% crit dmg, 10% crit chance. It’s way overtuned IMO. Wizard has a passive that gives 6% crit chance after you hit enemies with a fire skill. It’s a very strong passive. You would get 10% just by equipping an item that you are already equipping anyway, because you don’t choose your weapon based on a passive.

Brooding - Maybe change CDR to RCR, or go for 5 / 5 / 5. I think one of the issue with DH is its difficulty to stay topped on resource, compared to cooldowns which are quite short and easily manageable (compared to say, a crusader for example, a class with many cooldown-based skills), as well as toughness. Brooding is a toughness-oriented passive. RCR gives toughness through crimson. To me, it’d be more fitting to the class.

You know, at first I thought the buffs you were asking for were too much, but after reading it again and commenting on them, I think they’re not that bad actually. Very fair even. Hopefully some of those will be changed. I really liked the Chakram buff.

Oh, the one thing I didn’t mention is 17500% damage multiplier by equipping 2p shadow + a weapon. That’s too strong IMO. That’s >50% more damage than LoD/LoN, and is less restrictive than LoD/LoN for the most part. Bit too much.

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Do you think it is even possible to fix the independence of Dawn for every DH build?

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This one is nice. It makes RoV much more impactfull.

Do you intent this effect to stack with additional wolves, like the ones you get from Cloak of the Garwolf?

This one here puzzles me a bit. Why not just 600% increased Elemental Arrow damage?

This is good as well. The bonus took too long to charge up fully.

That will be nice for LoD builds.

Isn’t the issue with Marked for Death that the damage is additive instead of multiplicative? So I wonder how useful that change will be in the end.

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I like your adjustments to Passive Skills as well. That will make them more diverse and viable.

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I have two additional suggestions. The first one is likely not gonna make it because it would require significant changes to how the DH works, but I thought I mention it anyway, because the idea is cool.

DH’s should be able to dual wield daggers.
That way they could weak both Greenstones Fan and Karlei’s and make an Impale + FoK build. I know, that would require new animations to be made, which is not going to happen, but the idea is still interesting imo.

Elemental Arrow should have a rune for Molten Arrow.
Molten Arrow was a skill that was shown in one of the first DH footage we got while D3 was still in development.

It leaves behind a trail of fire on the ground, like the Wizard’s Scorch rune for Arcane Orb. I would like to see the effects of Scorch and Immolation Arrow swapped, so that Arcane Orb gets a Fireball rune and Elemental Arrow a Molten Arrow rune.

Footage of Molten Arrow:

I think both fit into the theme, but either works.

There are multiple items that give multiple bonuses in non-weapon slots. DH’s lack this. While yes, items that give both DR and DPS are almost a must item, the class design has basically pigeon-hold us into trying to consolidate with what we already have. We don’t have much freedom in slot options without some serious overhaul :frowning:

Also keep in mind that items that have multiple bonuses to DR is basically a damage increase (safer to deal more damage) and also vice versa, so it’s not a far fetched idea to consider both sides on an item for DH’s. The values can definitely be debated and I see where you’re coming from.

I disagree here, but understand the intent. Builds that take that long to do damage is a turn off for a lot of players. If your burst FoK doesn’t crit, you wasted 30 seconds and so on. A minute plus is a lot of time to just be gathering around, hoping for RNG crits to be in your favor.

The current iteration of FoK encourages the use of Shi Mizu cloak to alleviate some of that RNG, which, while a neat niche, is horrible game design and gates a lot of players from even wanting to use the build.

I understand the sentiment of builds revolving around CoE (I personally don’t like CoE), but that’s more an issue with CoE + Pull/AD rather than the build itself.

I think it’s 10 yards currently. We discussed increasing the AoE to 20 yards so it’s not so reliant on a super tight ball.

I believe all of us would love to get rid of Dawn period lol. We side with Free on this one, in that all classes are reliant on a “GG” form and I don’t think that’s going away any time soon.

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Quick comment before I read everything in details. Developers should know how much of a damage buff we need. Even if we get everything listed I don’t see any DH clearing GR 150 solo. Barb is at 147, WD 150, Crusader 150.

You need to think about non season players. We don’t play season mostly because we don’t like to grind for gear we already have. If they miss the target for some legendary item all the time… they will have to change it again and again and again. I prefer changes to set items because they are retroative.

This is why Blizzard should look more into Ideas and not exact numbers that where proposed. To hit or miss with a change is in realm of their responsibility. I don’t want to hear “but that is what you asked for” if some of changes are implemented and we underperform.

It was great effort. I really hope you will not be ignored again. Maybe this is the right time for Matthew to post something on forums, after long absence.

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Maybe not for 2.6.9, but 2.7.0 perhaps? Though if they were to at least try the numbers for tuning in the OP here, then with a longer PTR they could get more info and see if and how players can break the game, and then make more tuning adjustments. It just feels sooooooo craptacular to always be at or near the bottom of the barrel vs., well, anything. Half our toolkit is unused in virtually any build because they were neutered so badly toward the end of D3v due to the life leech situation, and then they were never looked at again, leaving us with what we have today. :frowning:

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good work bud. there are a lot of well thought out proposals in there.

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Wojhanni Assaulter needs a slight modification. He must not lose his stack instantly after he stops attacking, he must have at least 1.5s-2s time, this allows us to dodge dangerous places and not lose rotation.

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Hey, dmkt.

Good work, there’s a lot here to ponder. I’m both kind of pleased and kind of sad that you went this route, rather than the “a couple of items that broadly buff range / mid-range / melee builds” method you discussed a couple months ago.

Pleased, because I think this kind of detailed approach is the best and most interesting way to buff not only your class but every class. Sad, because I think Blizz probably has <10 item/skill changes in the tank. Meaning most of the issues you highlight will not only persist, but in many cases be exacerbated by one or two sets/builds (including, probably, your new set) becoming much more powerful than all others.

But: I certainly hope I am wrong about that!

Some notes / questions / comments:

You can add in UE6 Multishot, GR 128 @ 4799P (NA Era 2019-1)
I think the current peak on this build (at 9.5k paragon) is 133 (2019-1 Asia)

Multiplicative or dibs on the damage buff? Might want to note this anywhere you have a damage increase so it’s obvious.

I assume you mean for the armor bonus to be 3% * 10 stacks = 30%, right? And not 3% of your max life * 10 stacks, because that would be 200k+ armor, pretty OP. May want to rewrite as “Attacks grant you an absorb shield for 3.0% of your maximum life and increase your armor by 3.0%. Stacks up to 10 times.”

Does the 4 piece of N6 buff the affix on Crashing Rain? Or only the 6 piece? What share of the total damage is RoV doing with these buffs taken into consideration?

Did you mean to remove the increased Stun duration? I see your note further down about the damage bonus on EE runes with CC being lower, but still not sure if this strikethrough was intentional.

“Cloak of the Boarwulf”

vs.

I think Archery will probably be the go-to damage passive with this change, and Ambush will still stink. To be competitive with either “buffed Archery” or Steady Aim, I think Ambush needs to go to maybe 60% additional damage to enemies above 60% health.

Does the shield layer, or refresh? I assume it refreshes, right? So after 16 seconds, it returns to “30% of your maximum life”, not “60% of your maximum life”, yes?

Is the CDR self-additive or self-multiplicative? If you were starting with 0 CDR, would you end up with 24% or 22.13%? Not a big difference, obviously, but worth knowing.

I hear ya, man, but: you don’t really want to bet on that happening, right?

I mean, you’ve obviously taken a lot of time to put together a set of changes that you feel bring a reasonable level of balance to your class, both vs other classes, and between different builds within your class. To do that, but then wager you’ll get a competitive build basically because Blizz can’t math good seems… pessimistic, I guess? Or maybe just “sad”.

I think you should shoot for the numbers you’d actually most like to see. Then, even if it all blows up in your face, you can say, “I tried. I did all that I could.”

Just my two cents.

Ok, that’s all I’ve got for now. Again: good work, and good luck!

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Fantastic topic, thank you for your effort, OP.

One note:

It would make sense to switch these two bonuses around, as having a 2nd Hand Crossbow equipped implies that you are no longer using a quiver and therefore you would have a bigger need for that lost 10% crit chance.
Using only one Hand Crossbow could be done with a quiver, which means you can potentially be already above 62% crit chance in total. It’s the addition of the 2nd Hand Crossbow and removal of the Quiver that takes a bit hit in your crit chance.

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