D4: what kind of player you are and how would you like your drop ratio?

General Discussion
#88

Endgame

I agree that we need to know more about other systems (runes, crafting, etc) to get a better picture since items and their drop ratio are just a part of the game mechanics.

As an example:

  • worthy items have an “high” drop ratio

  • resources needed to improve those items have a “low” drop ratio

would be very different from:

  • worthy items have a “low” drop ratio

  • resources needed to improve those items have a “high” drop ratio

What I do hope is that reaching the “endgame” would take somewhat longer than in D3.

We should have a “game” and, later, an “endgame”.

Personal opinion here but in D3 it felt to me we had an introduction to the game and at the end of that we where already in endgame.

Drops must fit the game

Half agree here.
What I don’t get is why it has to be the same for all the players, even those who are not interested in competition.
I think I remember (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here) Blizzard saying it’s not going to be an Esport, so they should consider more the other aspects of the game (coop, solo, etc)

Those who like to compete with others would compete with those playing with same setting or else have a “competitive” mode.

Those who don’t care about competition…just won’t care about it.

Yet I find myself agreeing with you about the game being more difficult to balance, develop and manage.

Items raindropping

Yes, people (and myself too sometimes) tend to forget that itemization is linked to other mechanics.

In a system like D3, where to play a specific build you often need that specific set of items, there was a need to give players those specific items.

A good thing in my opinion would be to have other mechanics (skills, talents, etc) to have more influence on builds.
There seem to be some step in that direction but we have little info so we shall wait more.

What worries me is the legendaries we have seen, the approach seems to go toward a “must have” approach…what I fear is “must have” leads to “must give” and then we will be back here chatting about items raindropping.

Still, it’s my personal worry and, as I said above, other mechanics could balance it.
I do hope so.

#89

Agreed. This is part of what need to be fixed.

#90

we have pretty much all the info we need on having skills and talents have more of an influence on builds from Blizzcon. They stated they want a 50/50 player power split between gear and skills. Significantly down from 90%+ in D3. ATK only comes from weapons and Def only comes from armor. So managing a good set of skills will be more important.

Skills themselves now have ranks so the more you put into skills the more powerful they become. We also have choose what skills we want to build with early on, so if you build up say fireball, but you realized you like frost bolt better, well your frost bolt will be much weaker until you catch it up.

As for sets, they mentioned they really only want new players and players who rather like being told how to play to rely on them. They will not be the be all end all as they became in D3, nor be a more powerful, more desirable option than legendaries, and my guess now, legendaries and rares.

As for legendaries, it looks like we may have a ton more options than in Diablo 3 which would make things a lot more interesting. I get some find non legendary affixes a more interesting way to build characters, and in the end it may be better to be able to stack certain stats more so than stacking a bunch of legendary affixes.

But as it stands now, you could take the Sorcerer and teleport example from Blizzcon, you could stack3-4 legendaries that effect a mobility spell and turn it into something dangerous. I can easily see a speed farming or even a pinball wizard build using those. But at what expense? I could easily see others using less Legendaries of other spells with a better mix of stats, and out perform me becasue I buffed the crap out of a mobility spell and took up 3-4 precious slots on that alone.

But then this just goes to the nature of players in general. Every game with loot and/or builds have had must have items or BiS lists. Who cares if they are orange, green, yellow, or blue? You are either going to go find the gear list on line and farm for those items or you are going to buck that trend and do what you want.

#91

Been on Diablo since D1 had it on pc and ps1 was very disapointed when they didnt make D2 on console😕 but they did for D3! Got pc and ps4 and very glad it will come on all plateforms the lore is what matters the most and gameplay, very disapointed with necromancer D3 vs D2… it could have been soooo much better.

#92

Sorry, I meant the two first BiS. ^^

If every Legendary has fixed affixes, or at least one random affix that can’t appear in rares, that may be OK.
But I strongly think Legendary Powers are the trademark of… Legendaries, and that rares should have their own unique specificity.

Having imbalance is enough of an issue imo. By itself it defeats the purpose of having a cross-class/skill LP.
But there can be solutions, like the one you suggest. PoE kind of managed to do it with support skills (and Wolcen too it seems, thanks for the explanation) so it should be possible in D4.

#93

Who knows if it is an imbalance though? Presumably there is a reason why one have a 22 sec cd and another have 15 sec. Otherwise, give them the same cd.

Does it really matter what you call them though? The moment you add a legendary consumable to a rare, it is technically no longer a rare item but something new. A legendary with random affixes. You can still have rares alongside those two other item types (fixed legendaries, random “rare-legendaries”, and random rares,all with their own value in end-game).

Yeah, that is certainly a skill modification system as well.

#94

We have infos which hint at a different game setup from D3 and that is a step in a good direction, in my opinion.
We also have infos about items with “skills modifications” and that is a bit worrysome( to me).
It could be good for the game as long as they don’t become “must have” items.
Were they to be not top level items you could give players to gain that special “skill modification” and then, using the legendary crafting material, apply it on higher level rares…well, it could be a good option.
Players will have more choices, they will have an improvement in that slot (the newly forged rare would became BiS) while waiting for a better legendary drop.

It adds to the choices so it’s a good thing.
I just do hope they won’t give us 10 (not so) different versions of the very same item, just with different stats on it.
At the very least I’d like for it to have a slight different name or quality class, somewhat like: rough-standard-refined-high quality-masterpiece.
I feel it adds to the fantasy and to the feeling of progression but perhaps it’s a matter of personal taste.

We know next to nothing about crafting and runes are still be tweaked (it’s early development stage we are talking about: Crimson-Indigo-Obsidian-Golden-Alabaster…never forget about those)

Balancing item rarity and power it’s a tricky path.
Too much balance and legendaries would become rares with a different color, too less and they risk to become mandatory items.

Balancing gameplay is even more difficult since there are so many different players each with her/his own approach and likes/dislikes.
Balancing things out between the fast-paced-competitive-players and the slow-paced-non-competitive (just to pick two extremes) ones could be very difficult indeed.

I take it Blizzard has some statistics about which kind of players play their game, does any of you know if there is anything available to read?

#95

Because one is for a melee character, the other a ranged one.
It is imbalanced because the Crit bonus would apply more often on Barb than Sorc, simple as that.

I don’t really see the issue in having class-specific Legendaries, in fact I think it’s good for lore and character appearance. But there should be “shared” Legendaries too, I agree with that.

It’s not the name that matters, it’s the mechanics. LP were introduced in RoS to make Legendaries stand out compared to rares, this is what they do (or should do).
If the consumable changes the rare into a Legendary, kind of the way the Kanai formula does in D3 but keeping the random affixes, why not… but then you won’t have any reason to wear a real rare item, thus making itemization less rich.

#96

I believe all their metrics are private.

#97

Because d3 is so good you could play it for 15-20 years right?? lmao no.
Diablo 4 needs to take from D2 and forget Riftrunner 3000 (Diablo 3)

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#98

I like to find an item and think WOW How can i make this work with a character.

I like finding a legendary and going “WOOOAH A LEGENDARY”
because it was difficult to find rather than
“Oh another legendary, Is it X legendary primal ancient +5000% damage?”
No its not its garbage.

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#99

Tought so.
Pity, it would be interesting to read and analyze how it all changed from release to current day.

#100

True. I love insight like that.

#101

Still doesn’t seem like a problem. Different skills are different. That is generally a good thing.
But even if it is a problem, it can easily be solved. Make the crit chance duration shorter if gained from Leap (25% of CD). Or increase Leaps cooldown if you have the item equipped. Or make the crit chance bonus scale with the cooldown. Like CD*1,5 = 22 s cd gives 33% crit chance. 15 s cd gives you 22,5% crit chance etc.

Imo the issue is massive. Harder to get items you want. The usability of items you do get are lowered (due to being more specialized). More hand-holding from devs (telling us how to play). Less creative use of items.

Why wouldnt you have a reason to wear a rare item. The rares could have more affixes than legendaries and legendary rares.
Either by having another consumable that adds 2-3 affixes to rares (cant be used together with legendary consumable of course). Or rares always having 2-3 more affixes, but the moment you use a legendary consumable, 2-3 affixes are removed.
2-3 affixes is based on Blizzards claim that legendary affixes would be as powerful as 2-3 normal affixes (as unlikely as it seems to be).
Giving us 3 different item types to wear in the end.

Indeed.

#102

Yes, but we’re talking about skill modifiers.
Changing how the skill is modified is a solution, but it can make the tooltip quite cumbersome. Also, some skills have very specific mechanics, like Meteor with the lightning skillrune in D3.

For those cases, it’s simpler and easier to balance to have skill-specific modifiers. Should not be a problem with some reasonable smart-drop, and anyway there should still be cross-class LP too.

Could be a good solution indeed !

#103

A radical idea I got is relatively high drop rates but armor and weapons are permanently rendered useless (maybe “salvagable” to some extent) so that you have to find new items regularly. Just because you got lucky and found “BiS” set up… it wears out and has to be replaced. Charms and jewelry type items would be rarer but wouldn’t be subject to permanent damage.

#104

It certainly is radical for an A-RPG. I think it can work great, but it doesnt feel like a good fit for Diablo imo.

I could see it being used for some non-gear stuff. In another thread someone posted an idea about charms for D4, where you had a small separate inventory, but the charms only lasted for a few hours at most. If you died, they were instantly destroyed. So you were constantly looking to find new ones to add, offering small bonuses, that you could never rely on having. Like maybe different charms gave +3% max fire reistance +10% MF, or +1 fire skills etc. Could even be temporary gameplay changers resembling legendary bonuses; like Frost skills explode for 10% of their damage in a 20 yard radius or whatever. But still with short durations.
Kinda liked that idea of something you keep replacing all the time.
Even if I dont think it should be your normal gear. And it is of course important that the bonuses never feel like they are required (so you had to farm for a specific charm before entering a key dungeon or similar).

#105

If it is not the same then it is not fair to all. Ones that team up to beat harder content should get more than the solo player. Because the team will be able to tackle harder content than solo. Think risk vs reward that is a formula that has to be used.

If players play more than others they should get more than others. Otherwise it won’t be fair to them if someone plays less but gets the same amount they do. Time played has to have an affect in the reward.

We need to see a blog post for D4 that is solely about the updates to itemization. Where we can have our concerns eased a bit. If there are different alternatives to BiS gear that will still allow you to clear the end game, even if it means that you will struggle some then it makes it doable. Will BiS gear still be sought after, yes, but it won’t be needed.

If we have good strong alternatives to BiS gear in D4 then there won’t be must haves in the same manner as D3.

To be honest though those that want the very best items for their characters will still chase after them even if the game is balanced around not needing them.

Even with the best itemization system you will always have must haves when players want the best for their characters. Those players will chase after the best items.

D3 has done some things right, of course not the itemization. But this doesn’t mean to copy and paste D2’s itemization. I want an improvement on D2’s itemization.

If charms do make a reappearance in D4 then I want the devs to make a talisman system similar to what D3 devs were thinking about. That way you have a separate storage to hold them. Having them clutter up the inventory which would cause you to return to town more often would be a bad idea.

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#106

Which is fine.
Design a game where there are plenty of alternatives for the best items in each slot. And where you dont need those items to get far into the end-game.

If there are a few items that gives you 25% more dmg in various ways, and most other good items in the same slot merely give 20% more dmg etc. those +5% is likely not going to make or break your game.
600% dmg to one of your attack skills on the other hand means that item is absolutely required.

Yeah. Dont make charms that take inventory space.
And honestly, only add charms if they do something more unique than D2 charms. Like the aforementioned “short term buffs”. They need to be more than just ‘a few additional affixes’.

#107

Wait, I think we are looking at the same things from different perspectives.
Perhaps I’ve not made myself clear enough (it always happens in my own language, so in english is quite a given)

I highlighted the solo part after reading SolarNova post:

So:

  • drop ratio selected on character creation and not adjustable ever after.
  • solo play only

Were non-competitive-solo-players to have the chance to select their drop ratio, would it affect competitive or coopertive players?
I think not but perhaps I cannot get to see how, so please give me some example.

Were competitive-solo-players to have the chance to select their drop ratio and be able to compete only with players who made the same choice (and so fair for all those involved), how and why would it affect the players who made a different choice?
I can see this splitting players in smaller subgroups and that could be an issue on it’s own. Again some examples would be appreciated.

I came to agree that were this option given to multiplayers it could bring forth many issues (fairness, as you mentioned, would be one huge issue) and would be quite difficult to manage.

Agreed.
We all are basically hunting for the best items: it’s just that some want to find them quick while others want a slower pace.
I’d like a way to allow for the different approaches to coexist to some extent, if possible.
Also, I’d like for the majority of builds to be viable even if you don’t have a specific mandatory item.