D4 trading - why it needs to be limited or not at all

General Discussion
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This is not what is implied by a lot of naysayers of trading. Many of them assume that people can trade-up in the sense that you can trade an item you found for items that are worth more and repeat this process at a faster rate than if someone were to only kill monsters in dungeons which is the point you blatantly ignored. They bring issue to the idea that a player can only play the trading game and ignore and dungeon grinding completely to gear up their character without ever having to grind in a dungeon. Technically you can but I don’t agree that that route is faster than grinding dungeons. However, if someone wants to play that way, there is nothing wrong with that.

I think we all can agree that with open trading drop rates are decreased compared to a game with restricted trading and with restricted trading also requires character specific loot to only drop 99% of the time. So gearing “faster” is relevant by only comparing it more to a game such as Diablo 3 where trading is restricted and drops are much higher.

No, you are misunderstanding. “Similar” gear is not the correct word, the gear would be similar in value. This is easily understandable in the sense that an Ist rune could not be traded for a Jah rune in Diablo 2. I made this point that trading-up in D2 is a much more incremental process the majority of the time and depends on many factors.

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You certainly can do that. MrLama was describing in a recent video that was discussed here, how he had spent some D2 ladders just trading, without leaving town pretty much.
Anyway, yeah, that is likely not efficient.

I dont think that is what people are really saying though.
Seems to be that they (and I) are saying that trading makes you able to trade for much much better gear than you could possibly hope to find yourself.
Since finding item A is, by definition, much harder than finding item A,B,C,D,E,F,G,etc.

That I disagree with. It is bad gameplay imo.
But as long as there is a game mode without that, and droprates balanced around not having the ability to trade, I am fine with it.

Also by comparing between someone who trades and someone who do not.
The person who trades will gear up A LOT faster.

The gear you buy will often have a much higher value for you than the crafting materials (in PoE) that you pay with.
Of course, for the seller, the crafting mats has a similar or higher value, or they wouldn’t bother to make the trade. Exactly because the gear is something they didn’t want themselves. While you want it.
Bringing us back to trading making it a lot easier to gear up, since you can buy cheap gear from other players (or as we see in D2; you just get handed gear for free, because the items are unsellable).

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As far as finding an item they don’t need to trade for an item they do need because drop rates are non-character specific sure but its intended that way if there is trading. Because thats just it, if a game is implementing trading then its baked into the gear progression rate for a player, so that “gearing faster” is the intended progression rate so its not actually gearing faster, its the standard. If that one player is choosing to only do dungeon grinding, another player is choosing to only trade and another player is doing both, doing both is what the developers intended because drop rates were factored in with open trading. If someone wants to play sub-optimally with respect to the intended way that is their choice. However, if you’re not out there grinding dungeons you’re not going to acquire more and more gear so trading and dungeon grinding are both required.

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And that is the problem.
Two game modes with different droprates can be a solution though. Probably the only solution, unless one counts not allowing trading at all.

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It’s not a problem. Both are fun and are a part of playing an ARPG. D3 is NOT the standard, D3 was based more on an MMO approach. World of Warcraft has essentially no trading. D3 has polluted peoples ideas of what should be in and what should be out. If you don’t like trading go play a ****ing MMO. This shouldn’t even be a debate but because of people who had no experience with an ARPG at Blizzard who made D3 its warped everyones idea of an ARPG.

Somewhere somehow, a handful of D3 fanboys decided they hate trading so much because they think it’ll mean Blizzard takes away their loot pinata that drops 300 legendary items at the end of their “rift runner 3000” game.

I think trading implemented in a new iteration of Diablo can make the community of the game be more interactive than ever before. There are so many ideas for ways to get players to interact with trading floating around on the forums. Trading is the standard and its good and BETTER for the game than if there isn’t trading. There is no reason why the trader-haters should have their way. The D2 fans deserve a true successor and that means trading.

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What do you care about open trading if you’d just play offline anyway?

It’s possible, but I’d guess that overall the situation Shad describes happens much more often.

I mean, if you talk to proponents of trade from D2 they’re often going to remember the time(s) they traded an item worth 3 SoJ to someone for 5 SoJs.

That DID happen in D3 with the AH. That’s why people say that. The drop rates were stupidly low to encourage people to use it… and some people were good enough at it (or lucky enough) that they could simply play the AH instead of the game to be geared.

Well, yeah, there kind of is something wrong with any scenario that involves spending more time outside the game than inside it in order to gear characters.

Smart loot is only 85%, not 99%. And no, it doesn’t require character specific loot to drop that often, as long as there are meaningful ways to utilize the loot that isn’t character specific - or to turn that into character specific loot somehow.

Meh. The drop rates in D3 never needed to get anywhere near what they are now. Maybe they would have had to do an increase eventually when they started added more sets and legendary items, but the drop rates were fine way back with only Torment 6 after they kept the first year anniversary buff for RoS active.

Oh yeah it is.

Wrong, on both counts.

First, “fun” is subjective. Trading might be fun for you, but it isn’t for me. I dislike the baggage that comes with it.

Second, the only ARPGs that have really had both open trade and the player base to support it are D2, D3, and Path of Exile. There are PLENTY of ARPGs where trading isn’t present or essential.

And on another note… if trade is part of an ARPG, then are you saying everyone who played D1 and D2 offline did it wrong? Because none of them could trade.

Quite a stupid interpretation, really.

Based on what, really? There is nothing trading accomplishes that can’t be done another way.

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Or just dont have the concept of character specific loot at all. No class main stats etc.

I bet most D2 fans didnt trade much at all. I sure didn’t.

Trading didnt suddenly become bad in D3, it was bad in D2 as well.

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Yes and that can be considered a “highlight” or an exciting moment for someone. This is an easy example why trading could be enjoyable for people because sometimes the trade value of items could be more subjective based on many factors.

Who is arguing for trading from the perspective to have another D3 auction house, I’m not and I don’t think anyone is that is for-trading. It didn’t happen in D2 because there was no auction house. D2’s drop rates are not nearly as bad as D3’s were when there was an auction house by comparison because D3’s auction house and drop rates were manipulated based on financial incentives where Blizzard gets a cut off every sale. I could farm Hell Mephisto for 2 or 3 hours and find tons of uniques in D2. No one arguing to have trading is arguing for it from the stand point of there being an auction house like there was in D3. They are basing their pro-trade argument on the basis of trading from the perspective of D2. D2’s drop rates do not make me feel forced or compelled to trade like D3’s drop rates made me or anyone else feel forced to buy on the auction house because Blizzard has a financial incentive to manipulate drop rates for that.

“Outside” of the game? Trading is INSIDE the game, it’s a part of the game, it came with it when I bought it. When I trade I have to make a game, walk around inside a town from the game and interact with another player in the game, an interface made by the game developers for trading pops up in the game, we click 2 check boxes and we trade our items - in the game.

D2 had a perfectly good balance between trading and monster farming, therefore if someone wanted to only trade by their own choice, there is nothing wrong with their choice to play the game that way. There is only something wrong with it as you mentioned if the drop rates are manipulated in such a way to highly force or compel players to use an auction house such as in the case of D3 because Blizzard had a financial incentive to get a cut of each item sold.

Again I’ve been playing D2 ladder quite a bit lately, doing a lot of MF farming on a sorceress and I’ve had to make several accounts of mules. So D2, in no way makes a player feel forced or compelled to have to trade. Did I make some trades here and there, sure but that is intended by the developers, it’s a part of the game, its IN the game.

I’m certainly not wrong if one of the best games in PC history had trading, Diablo 2, and one of the most popular ARPG’s today PoE has trading as well. As for those other ARPG’s that supposedly don’t have trading, haven’t heard of them - probably a reason for that.

D2 didn’t force you to trade or compel you, especially not in the same way that D3/AH did, but you are forcing people to not trade with your point of view. So feel free to not trade when D4 comes out with trading because at least you’ll have the choice.

I’m not saying anyone who played D1 or D2 off line did it wrong at all. I’m just making the point that trading is a valuable feature for an ARPG. Many players choose to play single player just to do holy grail runs to find every item themselves, that’s their choice but at least I’m not you who is telling people they cannot have any trading at all simply because you’re selfish.

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If D4 ended up with trading, there would be an auction house. Either officially, or unofficially. PoE style.

It could be one of the best PC games despite of traing, not because of it.

Surely it did compel you. Quite a lot.

Sure, trading can exist as an option. Two modes.
Trading with droprate A
Non-trading with droprate B.
Where B is quite a bit higher than A, so both modes have similar gearing progression.

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Not for the other guy.

Which is, in general, a problem in a trade system. It promotes selfishness.

You’re the one who brought up the scenario. I’m simply explaining it.

Never said it happened in D2. Again, I’m simply explaining a scenario you brought up.

Again, see above.

The AH wasn’t, which is what was being referred to there.

Meh. The actual trade might take place in the game, but spamming trade channels and/or visiting websites that sell items or regulate trade (IE poe.trade) don’t. That’s all time spent outside of it.

I think it would be naïve to think that there wouldn’t be similar websites for D4 as there are for PoE.

Of course you’re wrong. More ARPGs exist than D2 and PoE.

The way you stated that trade was “part of an ARPG” definitely implies that it’s required. Yet here you’re saying it’s not.

Which one is it?

And I’m making the point that it isn’t - because most ARPGs don’t have it.

The only thing you can say for certain is that it’s a valuable feature of (online) D2. And that’s fine, nobody is arguing against that.

My argument is simply that trading isn’t needed because you can accomplish what trading does via other methods. At the end of the day, trading is simply a way around RNG. It’s a method to acquire specific items that aren’t dropping for you. So… if D4 has systems where you can pursue specific items reasonably, then there’s no need for trading. You keep the end result, but don’t have to deal with 3rd party sellers or keeping track of a virtual economy.

That’s ironic, considering open trade promotes selfishness.

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Not necessarily true. As I said trading is based on many subjective factors, a difference of 2 sojs depending on which time period we are talking about whether it was when they were being duped a lot, 2 sojs is nothing. However 2 sojs is worth a fair amount now so in this context, this example also means that that exchange is highly unlikely to happen. Regardless again, trading is based on many subjective factors such as a players needs and rarity of items. Even for the player who received the item worth 2 sojs, that item may still be very rare and hard to come by and may be a crucial item for his build to make it work, in that case he made the decision knowingly to take that lesser trade in order to have a more effective build immediately.

Oh, you’re hilarious.

Well I am not in support of the D3 auction house within the context of how Blizzard implemented it in Diablo 3 and what their motivations were to manipulate drop rates. I explained why the drop rates were “stupidly low”. I’m in support of at the very least, the basic trading functionality of D2 which in contrast to diablo 3’s auction house does not force or compel a player to trade.

Oh please. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

Nope because you attempted to say I’m wrong in an absolute by using subjectiveness to support your point to tell me I’m wrong therefore you contradicted yourself. D2 and PoE are the best and most popular ARPG’s they’re the only examples I need to make my point that trading is popular enough and fun enough that they are in the two most popular ARPG’s and the players are not having a complete meltdown because they actually like it; except for a few bad apples.

I don’t believe I ever said it was required. I may have said its baked into the item progression rate as designed by the developers but that doesn’t mean its required. Again, I contrasted this reasonably well between Diablo 2’s trading coupled with its drop rates and Diablo 3 with the auction house and its drop rates.

Ok, lets hear you list off these ARPG’s that don’t have it.

Okay so you’re admitting it’s a valuable feature for online in D2 and that you’re not arguing with that.

If you want to talk about other systems of obtaining loot then you’ll need to be more specific because otherwise it just sounds like you’re describing what is already in Diablo 3 which is class specific loot drops only. If you’re suggesting a system where I click a little box that says out of these rings I only want Soj’s to drop for me as rings I think that is ridiculous for many reasons. Particularly because it ruins the item power-to-rarity curve ratio.

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D2JSP has almost 1 million accounts and the trade comments are added every 3-5 seconds 24/7/365, even to this day.
The figures below are a cut and paste of the Diablo 2 trade posts made and the comments in them. These are not general discussion posts, those d2jsp forums have a much lower post count.
Topics: 71,243,790
Posts: 341,002,429

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You’re saying that an open trade system where the goal is the acquisition of personal wealth doesn’t promote selfishness? C’mon, can you be honest for a minute here?

Because…? You think everyone who engages in a trade pays attention to the exact amount their items are worth?

Rarity of items isn’t subjective.

Analysis is hardly moving the goalposts.

Oh, so when you said trading was “fun,” that was you using “subjectiveness” (not a real word, by the way) to support your point to tell me I’m wrong, therefore you’re wrong and shouldn’t have said trading was fun in an absolute, right?

Tolerating it and liking it are two different things.

Like I said earlier, of course you’ll use trade in those games. They’re designed around it. Not using it would be shooting yourself in the foot. You don’t have a lot of other options to find specific gear - especially in D2.

But then you have a game like Grim Dawn. Does it have trading? Yes. Does it feel like you have to use trading? No.

Maybe you should do a tad bit more research on ARPGs before you make sweeping statements about them that are based on the couple you know about.

Well… yeah, you did. You used that exact word, in fact.

Besides, even if you hadn’t, your entire argument is structured around the premise that trading is required to be in the game.

Better idea - why don’t you look up some ARPGs not named Diablo or Path of Exile?

But if you want a few… Darksiders, Grim Dawn (has trading, but is far from necessary), Victor Vran.

Not familiar enough with games like Sacred or Torchlight to say whether they do or do not have it… but I think it’s safe to say that even if they do the pace isn’t based around it.

Sure, because no other systems existed at the time. It was 2000.

I’ve outlined some ideas several times in other threads; I don’t see the need to do so again.

Nope.

Although I wouldn’t say no to an option where you could influence, say, more “ring” legendary items to drop. Influencing a specific ring is over the top, though… and I wouldn’t have it simply be a box to check. I’d have something you’d need to do in the game. Maybe hand in several “ring” legendary items to a certain faction, and you get a buff in return.

I’m also not adverse to more targeted options from bosses, areas, or specific mob types.

Lol.

Also, it isn’t November yet.

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Do I know you?..

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A lot of which are likely not unique players. Even if they were, 1 million is quite far from “most D2 players”.

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Nope. And I don’t know you either… but you posted in May you weren’t gonna be back until November, so…

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This is a pretty silly debate to be having, as we should all agree in having both a Self found league and a trade league.

Personally, I like trading, though I get it presents some issues, though issues will always be there regardless. with botters still rising the ranks, trading or not.

My main concern is that I won’t be able to trade with my friends. It sucks when you are often playing together, but sometimes don’t, and you find a perfect item for them, so you are excited and they are excited, even when they are not playing the game. It gets the brain thinking about the game and planning builds, even when you are not playing. It makes for a way more fun and cooperative experience, but of course does not require cooperation either.

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I don’t know of anything you’ve posted, let alone the dates. If I tell you something here will you remember what I said when I’m back first week of December?

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You’re being ridiculous.

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That doesn’t mean a video game needs its systems to be based on that. Especially because the vast majority of people use video games as an escape.

I’m pretty sure you can’t say that just because I don’t like trade (which is an extreme example of such characteristics) that I don’t like every other potential characteristic like that.

Actually, I’m not too lazy to do it. I just don’t LIKE doing it because I feel it takes away from the experience of playing the game. When you have limited time to play games, you kind of want to be playing said game rather than researching the value to every potentially decent item that drops. Especially if the value has a tendency to fluctuate.

You think it’s a nitpick to point out that your misuse of words could lead to an entirely different interpretation? I think you need to refresh yourself on what nitpicking is.

The rarity is items is something that’s set. The value is not, as you pointed out.

Moving the goalposts requires a changing of standards. Even you acknowledge that the standard wasn’t originally defined, so how the hell can defining it be moving the goalposts?

Neither of which has open trade.

That’s a pretty trash judgment, since I’ve long said I’m fine with trade as long as it’s optional and/or a separate mode. I wouldn’t care one whit about trading, for instance, if there were other ways to pursue specific items in a game.

Gonna have to explain how I was first if I’m quoting you doing it.

Then maybe you shouldn’t make sweeping statements about ARPGs.

I think you’d have a hard time arguing that games like Divinity, Titan’s Quest, and Grim Dawn aren’t successful or popular. I mean, geez, man, we’re posting on the forum of a game that arguably wasn’t either of those things.

That’s like saying Runes are baked into the design of abilities in D3, but it’s not required that you use Runes. While technically true, it’s a ludicrous position.

You’ve been posting in the trade threads; you should have seen them already. Besides, why in the heck would I want to waste my time rehashing them for someone who has clearly crossed the line from debate to outright hostility and ad hominem? I hope you enjoy forum vacations.

Of course. I just don’t see the need or the reason to actively promote such behavior in games.

It’s like PvP servers. But that’s fine - as long as I’m not required to play on PvP servers (and I’m not). Just need the same thing to happen with open trade… or for the dev team to do what they’re doing, and restrict trading.

What a ridiculous statement. Obviously nobody is against the idea of slaughtering hordes of demons in a video game. Kind of why we play Diablo.