just curious, you realize the stat caps on primal and ancient are the same right? the difference between a well rolled ancient and a primal is extremely small.
this is pretty much why i started this thread, nearly every thread i see being started by people are people asking for the game to be a way that I don’t enjoy, hense i want to understand the logic behind why people think the style of play is so much better.
There’s a reason i put thousands of hours into D3, and only hundreds of hours into a game like PoE… as for D2 i couldn’t even say how much time i spent playing that since it was so long ago and i’ve long lost those characters. likely well above 1000 hours in that game honestly… many mindless baal and mephisto runs. And at the time i was happy with that, but today i wouldn’t be. I enjoy what blizzard has done with D3.
I didnt enjoy how D3 started (with completely open trading and an auction house to speed up the trading) The main reason, I feel, that vanilla D3 drove so many players away early on is because of the free trade and loot drops tuned so bad that you had to rely on flipping and playing the AH to build any reliable build. Thats why i have such a poor opinion of it. They fixed that by gutting trading and buffing drop rates, and i honestly didnt like it at first… but over time i’ve come to greatly enjoy it.
I’d like to see blizzard find a nice middle ground, where you get enough drops to build your builds by playing (solo or in a group) but you have the option to dump items you don’t need into a market.
my concern is when trading becomes the “best” way to aquire items you need for specific builds or the best way to upgrade your gear. I’ve seen it in the two most recent ARPG’s i’ve played;
That’s how it is in PoE(when not playign SSF)
that’s how it WAS in vanilla D3
I didnt really enjoy either of those two games as much as i’ve enjoyed diablo 3 in its current state with zero trading.
When it gets to that point you no longer play to push the challenge and get harder clears (IE greater rift solo or group leaderboards) you instead play to find efficient farming routes (IE shaping your atlas in PoE to farm popular shaped maps, to then sell for orbs to buy the gear you need) I mean still you’re technically playing the game either way; i just prefer the way D3 does it .
woops i ranted a bit there too… lol… i should really go to bed.
I brought up that Diablo age has clearly shown, yes doing 400 baal runs is not fun but against at the time with limited hardware and limited tools. If Diablo 2 was given a modern upgrade. It would sell faster than hot cakes.
Don’t let age fog your view on the matter. It’s quite unfair to say older games are bad just because they’re older because we’ll all be saying the same thing 40 years from now about the games we play today.
It’s the nature of the beast. You have to view the game in the time period in which it came out.
Then this is the truth. You’re letting one bad experience ruin your entire point of view on the subject. This is unhealthy and limits your thinking. Diablo 2 fans did NOT like the auction house, did NOT like the way it was set up, did NOT like the way it implemented.
The great thing about Diablo 2 trading system it was a complete and utter unintended effect by the developers. Again, they’re not masterminds. I doubt any developer during the creation had foreseen the massive explosion of popularity that was Diablo 2 trading.
It wasn’t ran by gold, it was ran by players who set their own values for the things in which they were trading. Sure some items were useless in trade value but that’s again… the nature of the beast. That’s how it works in real life too.
I think we can agree that Diablo 2 players wanted that system to be gutted as well, but what came as replacement wasn’t good either because it was too busy fixing what was broken. Reaper of Souls is literally. “Let’s fix everything wrong with vanilla D3 because the current developers have no idea what they’re doing.”
And how this personally effect you in any way? Because it doesn’t. Why are you obsessed by in which other player’s are doing?
If they set a clear drop rate goal for the game that is completely and utterly independent from trading. (To make this more clear. Just because trading exists, doesn’t mean they’re going to nerf the drop rate.)
Why would you care? You can still play self find without any down side nor do you impose your will on others about trading. This is my main problem with everyone’s opinions on this matter.
STOP TRYING TO CONTROL ON HOW OTHERS INTERACT WITH THE GAME AND FOCUS ONLY ON YOURSELF AND YOURSELF ALONE.
This would literally fix many issues among many different issues inside and outside of gaming.
I given a perfect solution to this problem. Make it so you can check a box to make sure that particular character has no access to trading and make a separate leader board for said characters.
So now you have a leader board for softcore, hardcore, and non-trade which means… more people can play the game they want to play and compete in the game they want to compete. Everyone is happy and nobody is imposing their will on others.
Although I respectfully disagree with the premise, I appreciate your logical approach to evaluating other opinions and what you liked/disliked.
I have always found different people take enjoyment from games in different ways and this is why there is so much debate about the direction to go with these aspects of a popular game franchise like Diablo. I personally think the presence of an “economy” that involves trading really adds a cool dynamic to games. 1, in that it encourages socializing and interacting with other players. 2, some people really just love trading currency and items for progress instead of playing the game. That’s not me personally but that is some peoples cup of tea. Why not let people that really want to trade and flip currency and items do so? It doesn’t stop anyone else from finding their own items. (If the argument against this is that its “unfair” or players feel cheated that people trading items have an advantage I feel like that’s just counter-intuitive to a co-operative online game that actually having to interact with other players to make an item you found useful is such a hassle)
If they wanted to go like a bind on equip route id be cool with it it would still limit trading but allow every item to be traded. Otherwise it is way to silly for me that I can find a great item that isn’t directly useful to me and instead of being excited to give it to a friend or have some fun seeing what I can get for it’s just junk.
As long as it doesn’t affect everyone else, then sure. Seems like the core of the issue here is if you believe trading will affect everyone.
If we have perfect item acquisition rate X (whatever speed that is) then Blizzard will want to balance droprate for it. If trading exists I bet they will take trading into account. Thus if you do not trade you might get rate X/100 instead => yes you are affected.
You are getting a different game experience than the developer intended.
A lot of people don’t seem to realize how much the “success” of trading in D2 was heavily influenced by dupes and bots (not even accounting for straight up bugs and hacks like oculus rings and “ith” weapons). If everyone played legitimately and with intended drop rates, you’d see something much closer to AH-era D3.
I mean I’ll admit myself I pindle-botted like crazy my entire D2 career so I definitely contributed to that, while having never even touched a bot in D3. I find it quite odd people bash D3 for rampant bots over D2. But lets be realistic here, it is SO much easier to write a script for a completely set map layout and killing one mob than it is to write one for running randomly generated nephalem rifts.
See you are 100% right and I agree in regards to the idea that the loot tables will be different if trading is a part of the game. I just think the idea that it has some inherently negative affect on how people play and enjoy the game doesn’t have to be true if itemization is done properly.
My main contention is that its a multi-player game it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me to have a loot/economy that is basically just what you would collect in a single player game.
I don’t ever even have the time or motivation myself to go flip currency or items but I love sharing them around with friends to help each other out and it makes the RNG aspect of loot a lot less boring when an item isn’t simply useless or a material if it’s not better than what I am wearing.
IMO there is a very basic benefit to open trading. Being able to freely trade items with friends. This is the most basic functionality of Diablo. I don’t want it removed.
As to the so called negatives:
“Pay 2 Win”
As long as Blizzard themselves are not selling items, or officially supporting real money trading, the game is not Pay 2 Win.
Besides, if the game is done right, everyone eventually gets his BiS items. The problem with D3 was the artificial scarcity of loot, which was meant to push as many into spending cash on the RMAH.
Open trading existed in D2. I’ve never heard someone accuse D2 of being Pay 2 Win.
Account compromises
Diablo is a game for mature audience. It should treat the players as such.
It’s called PC… as in personal computer. And the security of that personal computer is personal responsibility.
Since the big boom of hacked WoW accounts back in 2007 (which was the result of people downloading addons with executables and running those executables, or they contained keyloggers), Blizzard have done their fair share to help with security.
They wrote articles and guides as to how people can prevent of avoid being hacked.
They sold keychain authenticators, and later introduced mobile authenticators.
Even if you get a keylogger on your machine and the hacker gets your account name and password, he still wont be able to get in if you have an authenticator.
For a hacker to steal your account, he would have to be hacking you real time. You type in your password and one authenticator code (which swaps like once per 10 seconds). If you suddenly get disconnected, don’t type another authenticator code right away and you’d be fine, since the hacker wont be able to obtain 2 codes one after another in order to remove your authenticator.
There’s also SMS protect.
With all those things that we have available right now, if your account still get’s stoled, I don’t know what to tell you. If someone, somehow circumvents the authenticator and SMS protect, the fault would be with Blizzard, not with you. They’ll roll your account back.
third party sites making real life money off the game
I shouldn’t lose the basic functionality of being able to trade with friends, because there are crazies out there willing to spend money on pixels.
I also shouldn’t be forced go give up my tea spoon, because there are crazies out there killing each other with tea spoons.
Why does it have to be a curve?
For me in D2, gear acquisition was either farming the items myself, or trading for them (in game, with things that I found, be it items or runes, never used a third party site or paid real money). On ladder most items were relatively cheap and of similar value, with one or two being more expensive (like Infinity). It wasn’t much of a curve if at all, rather a small spike.
This way of thinking is either stupidity, or disingenuous. It’s a false dichotomy to say:
“with open trade the drops would most likely be lowered, we need restricted trading or no tradign at all for drops to be OK”
We can have reasonable drop rates AND open trading. This is basically how D2 worked.
And before you say, that D2 didn’t have reasonable drop rates, you could gear yourself on Single Player if you knew where and what to farm.
In some regards, it was even easier to gear yourself on Single Player, because you got to keep your map and you could enable /players.
Have you ever played during a single ladder reset on D2? You do realize, that even though people would gear up multiple characters with BiS items, the game wasn’t “done”?
Your thinking is along the lines of a stupid WoW player. “I got all my BiS items, now what do I do with them? I guess the game is done till the next content patch. Alrighty then :*(”
No. Once you’re geared with BiS, you get to enjoy your character build in BiS, you get to do the content easier, you get to help friends, or you get to come up with your own fun activities.
It is because of such stupidity and catering to noobs, that WoW got destroyed thoughout the years… because some dumb people couldn’t figure out how to have fun with BiS gear once they had it.
In D2 character building was like a building a deck of cards. You would build several characters, that were really good at specific things. Once you’ve had them, that didn’t make the game done.
It was a better system than D3, in which often your builds either get destroyed (because of “balancing”), or you have to refarm pieces of gear to make them work again, because Blizzard don’t patch non-set items retroactively.
You mean a system purely based on luck. You either get the item you need or you don’t, and you can’t compensate through trading. Very interesting system. Makes the game really engaging, competitive and fair.
There are plenty of items that I want in D3 and still don’t have (not with the rolls I want anyways) and I can’t trade for them. I can’t guarantee in any way, that I’ll get them through crafting, because it’s random.
What’s your problem with players getting the gear they want?
D3 already tried that system with RoS and alienated plenty of people.
WoW tried that system with Legion, where your items were totally random, legendary acquisition was totally random, people couldn’t get their BiS as a result, and that alienated many people from that game.
How many times must this system fail for you to realize and admit, that it’s flawed and people hate it?
People like to be able to work on their gear and get the parts they want in a reasonable fashion. For WoW that was achieved though vendors, marks and currencies.
For D2, that was was achieved through what was semi loot table and trading.
You take those away it it becomes random luckfest. Only the worst players like such a system. They hate it when the system is fair, so they hope for a crappy system where they succeed though sheer luck, while people that actually know how to play, but are not as lucky, suffer.
How would you like it, if IRL you worked for a random paycheck. Would you survive if for two months you would get 0 cash at the end of the month and you’re not allowed to trade or borrow? You would not.
The offline mode for D2 was called Single Player.
You’re talking about playing solo online. What about it? I’ve found awesome gear over battle net by playing solo in a closed game, even without the option to use /players.
What’s your problem with that?
So you’re basically claiming, both the drop rates in D2 AND traidng on top of that were unreasonable.
Would you care to elaborate?
How come many players were able to obtain BiS on multiple characters thoughout a season? How was I able to do it? How coule you find it unreasonable?
And because I know what you’ll say – No, I did Not use third party sites.
The only bad part about farming in D2 is, that item levels and area levels should have been explained in-game and should have been displayed on the interface. They were not, unfortunately.
But you could learn the system and remember it by heart. If it was too hard for you to remember, there’s google.
And if area lvls and item lvls were to be patched in tomorrow in D2, so that the system is apparent to everyone, I’d be perfectly happy with that.
I woudl argue, that the system in Reaper of Souls is far more unreasonable, as there are plenty of items, that I want, but do not have and the chances I’ll get them are pretty slim. If there was trading, I could have traded some of the primals from my stash for other primals. I can’t, because the game does not allow me to.
People played Diablo 2 for years despite not getting all the items that existed. How long will it take for you to understand that a noob does not need all items to enjoy the game? If you did some research and knew where to farm you could find everything you wanted solo. High end runewords being hard to acquire, but definitely not impossible. It’s just that most players that claim they never saw certain runes didn’t even kill mobs that could drop those runes.
You completely ignored what I asked you. You refuse to answer whether according to you both the trading and the drop rates in D2 are unreasonable according to you…
Why does it have to be without trading on battle net?
If you played over battle net, yes, you could farm runes and assemble Enigma.
It would be deffinitely faster to do it though trading. I would also describe trading with a term I’ve seen thrown around when it comes to WoW. A bad luck protection.
If you don’t get the things you want yourself, you can trade for them.
Where’s the bad luck protection in RoS? What guaranttes me, that I’ll get an Ancient or a Primal version of an item that I want, with the rolls that I want? Absolutely nothing. I can spend my entire life and never get what I want.
What’s reasonable about such a system, where you literally have nothing you can do to compensate for bad luck?
@ Alecta
It’s even worse than that. Most people don’t seem to realize, that you don’t have to find a specific rune. You can assemble it from lower runes.
