So since the new season started i had a reason to launch Diablo again for the first time in a few months, and i saw that it was advertising a quarterly update which i mistook for being a new update (it was just the one from September, which i decided to recap anyways) and…
Doesn’t it seem like the D4 talent system is functionally the same as the diablo 3 spell/glyph system, except now we only get 30-40% of our spells and glyphs at a time?
the examples shown were for sorceress’s ball lightning and charged bolts skills as “Major skill nodes”, which by D3 standards would just be spells that we get by leveling, and then a few examples of “minor skill nodes” being akin to glyphs for the major nodes that by D3 standards we would just get by leveling…
there seems to be no functional purpose for limiting the players to 30-40% of these skill nodes (since we can still only put 6 skills on our bars) aside from making re-speccing and trying out new builds a major pain in the butt. the only possible reason i could think of for this new system is to allow skills to have the effect of multiple glyphs… errr, minor skill nodes, but based on the examples given, those nodes seem to have been watered down to mitigate power until you get all the possible bonuses. it just seems ultimately pointless to not allow me to get every node on the upper tree when one minor node only affects a specific major node and nothing else. my charged bolts firing off 1 extra bolt per cast doesn’t suddenly break my meteor spell, and that leaving a burn patch on the grounds doesn’t suddenly break my arcane missile sometimes splitting, and so on. where’s the design logic??
The main benefit to a talent tree is that none of the choices need be mutually exclusive with each other.
In Diablo 3 normally once I choose a rune then I can’t choose any other rune for that skill. With Diablo 4’s tree if I want to go all in on buffing one aspect of my character, I can do that.
Only being able to get a limited amount of the tree is a good thing as it has the player making choices about their character build. No character should be able to just specialize in everything. Keep in mind that even though we have a 6 skill limitations on our hotbar, not all of the talents are active skills. Many of them are passives that we get without them needing to be on a hotbar.
I’d prefer to see it fleshed out a bit more, but I think the talent tree is a good foundation for better character building than what Diablo 3 had.
Made me think of D2 and Grim Dawn. It’s okay. Just more the same that looks different. If it works, then I am good. My only real concern with D4 will be the servers. Who cares if the game is decent if you keep getting red bar lags, constant rubberbanding, and disconnects after disconnects. All that would make a decent game unplayable.
By the numbers of levels and skills pretty sure that you CAN have everything, the problem being is you’ll have everything at lvl1 (lvl2 at best if you want to “spread” things)
Don’t think that’s where the problem lies though, it’s the lack of ability to test/check what a skill or upgrade does before committing to it, at least that was a problem for me personally. But it’s 2020, so pretty sure we’ll have a visual of those things
My hopes are that characters are given a limited amount of free respecs (1-3 per character); after which, any further respecs would need to be earn via gameplay such as an item that you had to farm for and/or craft.
There should be meaning to your choices. At the same time, there should be a way to correct a whoops.
My crazy idea: the last 10% of available points are free to respect. All others points require something-similar-to-a-few-lv70-gems type of crafted item.
The whole point is there will be more avenues in endgame not just rifts. So now you cant have a character that’s good at everything, you need to think of what direction you want to go in. Do you want a character that excels at pvp? you pick more pvp nodes/skills. Do you want more movement speed or damage etc. It gives more choice’s and decisions instead of having everything readily available at the touch of a button. This is a good thing and I’m really excited to theorycraft different builds to try.
That is correct. This is going back to a more Diablo II style system. It has pros and cons. It does create a little more friction. You wont be able to use every ability. This means everyone else wont either. There will be some uniqueness to your character. It creates meaningful multiclass or multichar opportunities. I think the biggest benefit though is that you get to make a choice. You can pick a build and be a Frozen orb Sorceress or a Bone Spear Necromancer. Yes, you pick skills in Diablo III but its kind of a meaningless this is what I am right now. Diablo II and IV style lets you take more control of the RPG elements.
Like he said, limited number of free corrections. The token system in Diablo 2 after using your free respecs was fantastic in my opinion.
As opposed to the 22% of the skills and passives at one time in D3. Sounds is like a win win. /s
There will be respecs. I will guarantee it will cost some farmable currency be it gold, respec tokens, or D4s version of blood shards. So you will have access to everything. Just not all at once. Just like D3.
Skill balancing, was an issue in D2. If you remember the named creatures that are some of the first you encounter in Diablo. Damage types and defence, where pre generated per duungeon. A Paladin can get past easier than Wizard. As Cain said he was once imprisoned by demons. I see no reason to go back to that version of Diablo. Updates and artifact wing concepts, that link later versions of multiplayer. They already said they used to access systems just to leave behind a trace, they could return to. Cain is known for signature skills, from spells they designed with that version. Then he gets back actions he previously declared, because of how the 'balancing ’ and targeting of there personal shard effected game-play. Part of the Diablo game design is a randomised dungeon, but they link to the online maps. Simple, but each map is a class based design.
Anyway, the Diablo artifact ideas are an upgradeable item, in almost every version of the game. So, Diablo 1, and 2, artifacts still exist in the same logical world. They work with the rules, and some have been either destroyed, as you have seen, or sealed by the monks skill.
Diablo 3 is over ten years later in the timeline, and magic is still being used despite one of several arch demons being revealed, and sealed by the main soulstone. It seems that a shard is only one such artifact, and both angels and demons use them.
So, players sort of have to custom design what the different versions do before major changes. Diablo dose not have to follow the timeline exactly in each version of the game. They award a main concept for artifacts, but they all add custom effects the same as legendary gems.
Too restrictive. It also requires one to start all over again if they want to go in a different path. Allowing experimentation is a good thing. The only downside to how D3 did it is there was no cost associated with it. I mean Grim Dawn has no limit on full respecs of both the skill and devotion trees. Many here love it and many that want restrictive respecs never seem to complain or mention GD.
Just make it a gold cost or a token you get from doing stuff in game. That way, there is a cost associated with your choice, and a way to earn it back if you change your mind or want to do something different.
If you want to play one build the entire time do it. But if I get lucky and find a bunch of gear better suited for a different build, I should be able to try it out instead of rerolling a brand new character. And in reverse, if I don’t like it, I should be able to go back.
It’s one of my issues with D2. I made a few mistakes on skills, but didn’t feel like wasting time rolling a new character to make different choices. I also should not have to research how to build a WW Barb online before playing so I have every point pre selected for me.
Respecting the players time and freedom to experiment at a cost is how it should be.
I’m totally cool with there being respec tokens or something that can be earned. I personally would prefer if it was something that required work in game rather than just could be bought.
I was happy when respecs got added to Diablo II. But in the early days I didn’t feel like I was missing them. I didn’t feel like I was missing them until after synergies were added and some of the builds changed. Before that it seemed like most things I tried worked.
I would rather have the game feel rewarding and good than have it be easy and be able to trounce around as I want. We are also having this conversation without knowing what leveling looks like. I want hard leveling but if its like PoE leveling or Diablo III leveling where you can hit 70 or higher in PoE in an hour I think the respec is kind of irrelevant.
I don’t think such items should exist to begin with, or just a few of them for some very particular builds. The core of a build needs to come from skills and talents while items are
there for improving or adding secondary functions.
But I agree changing points shouldn’t be as restrictive as it is in D2, either for adapting your build to the game meta or just because you don’t like how your character is played. The costs are really too small in GD but it’s still closer to a good system.
What do you mean by “work” ? I don’t think it’s good to force the player to farm just to change a few points, but having to pay a weighty price in mats (like D3 high gems or D4 runes) should be enough to prevent mass freespecs, which is the only problem.
If you’re only changing a “few points” then you are perfecting a working build, either you forgot to get some utility skill, trying to get more min-maxie, or you want your build to be a little better for something else you are doing.
I think in any of those cases you totally should have to put some work in so people don’t just swap for whatever they are doing. It will make the game more challenging. It will lead to meaningful choices. It will make group play better.
I love the orb of regret system from Path of Exile. You get a few reset points as you complete quests and as drops. These work great for “a few point” changes.
If you want to scrap the whole thing, you can… But below level 70 or even 80 it might be faster to re-roll.
Using GD as an example, and D3 with it’s gold issue, it could just be as simple as your main currency. If you keep respeccing you’ll run out.
If we want a token system then make it a simple reward for completing like a set of 3 bounties. You can do that once a day if need be. I think that is fair. It’s something players would be doing regardless, in game quests or earning gold from doing anything. That would be my definition of “work”. Hardly seems like it at all.
You don’t need to force players to farm for specific objects to avoid that. Having any price at all is enough actually, whether it be gold, gems, leg mats or even xp. Just not so little that it feels rewarding to swap just for a run, like the 25 coins per point in GD.
The PoE orbs are a good system but the drop rate was far too weak and based on randomness.
I would be ok with that. As long as it’s not the “run all 4 bosses in Hell with random chance to drop”. ^^
I assume you’re talking about from the diablo 3 system… It’s the third day of this season and I have souls, 3 billion gold, and practically limitless gems. I would rather have no respecs than respecs that are essentially free. Even if it cost me 50 souls, I would respec everytime I swapped from Grifts to rifts.
