D4 Stat Feedback/Ideas?

General Discussion
1

I’m trying to come up with stat ideas based on what they showed in the update.
So I do know lots of us aren’t a fan of “Main Stat” and I had an idea.
Separate damage types (Melee, Ranged, and Magic/Elemental) So instead of Str being dmg increase for barb skills, make it Melee dmg & Defense, with Intelligence being Magic/Elemental, Willpower affecting Dots/CC, and Dex being ranged (Projectile/throwing)

(something like this)
Strength - Defense/Armor - Melee/Physical Dmg
Intelligence - All Res - Magic/Elemental Dmg
Willpower - CC Res - CC duration/Dot Dmg
Dexterity - Dodge - Range Dmg (Projectile/Throw)

These could be static things on each stat. then you could add in like Resource gen, crit chance, and whatever else as changing stats based on the class.
So if you wanted to play a Barb you might go Strength most of the time, but maybe you have a skill upgrade or some way to change your skills into elemental damage now you need int, or if you wanna make a throw barb you’d want more dex. OR even some hybrid. This would mean even more options for each class.

Sorc could have ways to change damage types as well allowing for skills to benefit from specific stats like dex or Str.

Druids could benefit from str for their Shapeshift forms melee abilities and benefit from other stats like int for storm magic, or Willpower for Dots.

Then when you got a ranged class you would benefit from Dex mostly but might have Melee skills to benefit from Str or changing dmg types to benefit from Int.

(Could even have summons gain bonuses from stats as well, allowing for a dedicated Summon build from druid or some other class.)

What do you think?

Random but wouldn’t mind seeing Affixes for this like summon atk speed or summon dmg increases on gear, or even unique pieces that have that.

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2

With my recent consumption of… strain… Sorry… Ham and Beans for the New years day dinner, I propose Bean Power. It works similar to Pox Faulds, the more bean power you have, the greater the… strain… Oh my goodness that one curled some nose hairs! Whew whee that one would strip the paint… Oh what was I saying? …Damage you deal as a noxious poison cloud.

Just kidding. :stuck_out_tongue:

3

Melee, magic and ranged dmg gets too close to being class-based imo (even if it technically is not).
So I’d prefer is the different offensive bonuses are something different, that is more equally useful for all classes.

4

Like What? Any examples? Because the way I’d have it set up is you’d get dmg bonuses to specific types of dmg allowing for most if not all stats benefiting each class depending on how you’d want to build. While still giving some type of defensive/utility stat still making different stats useful to each class.
(Last section after “Dexterity barb” is probably the most important bit, for TL:DR)

Melee, range, and magic are simple examples. You could say
Strength - Physical Dmg (Only really describable as like Melee range skills that deal physical dmg types???)
Intelligence - Elemental (Fire, Ice, Lightning, etc.)
Willpower - Dot (Poison, Bleed, Burn, Etc.)
Dexterity - Projectile/Thrown dmg (Spear, Bow, throwing skills)

Barb Example
Strength Barb
-Focus on Melee/Physical dmg

Intelligence Barb
-Focus on Elemental Dmg (Such as having the elements of attacks even if melee switch to say fire, making them benefit from Intelligence instead of Strength, or could simply gain dmg from intelligence as well as Strength.)

Willpower Barb
-Focus on Dot dmg or CC (So they’d benefit dmg wise from bleeding dmg or using stuns.)

Dexterity Barb
-Focus on throwing skills (So projectile attacks such as chains or weapons throws would benefit from this.

(You could even have cross compatible stat buffs. So while something like bow attacks benefit from Dex, you could also have throwing skills benefit from both Str and dex. So if we get an Amazon or something similar able to use bows and spears, they could benefit from Str and Dex for throwing skill dmg.) (Or make attacks with elements added to them via upgrades or whatever gain benefits from Intelligence. Example is bow skill gains benefit from dex, but upgraded in someway to add fire, now also gains increased fire damage from intelligence and damage bonus to the bow attack via Dex) This could be more what you are wanting. Allowing for more offensive benefits from each stat. It wouldn’t take anything away if you switched to fire dmg type from your bow skill, but now your bow skill would gain a bonus from intelligence as well as Dex. If elements also stack debuffs of some kind or dots based on the element willpower could also be calculated into this. So overall if it worked like this Dex, Int, and Will would benefit this “upgraded” bow skill, While something like a throwing skill with an element upgrade could benefit from all 4 stats. But depending on how you chose to invest would make different parts of the skill stronger/weaker, with gear choices also factoring in. is that closer?

5

That would presumably still have limited usage for a sorceress for example.
Dex would be fairly limited on barb.

One way I could see it was
Str = single target skill dmg, defense
Int = AoE skill dmg (and/or maybe AoE radius), and all resist
Dex = attack speed, proc chance, and dodge.
Willpower = dot dmg is nice, but I’d keep the resource cost reduction too, and CC res could be fine too

The old angelic/demonic/ancestral bonuses could be mixed in: Buff duration increase, and Debuff duration increase (somewhat similar to CC duration, just broader). Maybe as bonuses for Str and Int respectively, so they also had 3 different ones.

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6

Str would still end up fairly limited to a Sorc. with a few single target skills gaining benefit. Just like a Barb with Dex in my example being limited with throwing skills.

I don’t really see a solution that doesn’t end up with each class benefiting from the most 3 stats offensively. Unless we pull most offensive bonuses from stats, and put them directly into the skills and their passive trees. Plus gear bonuses.

With stats being directly linked to mostly defensive/utility bonuses. Or in your example could have most of the power linked like I said to skills/passives, but do things like proc chance and depending on the class could mix and match those Defense/Utility bonuses. Which would still make each class have unique stat allocations but have uses for each stat. Plus if they keep that system with the skill upgrades getting bonuses from stats, then stat allocation can also depend on a decent amount of skill upgrade choices for each stat.

So things they could mix around on stats for each class
Defense
All Res
Atk Speed
Proc Chance
Dodge
Crit Chance
CC res
Resource Cost Reduction
Max resource pool
Healing Received

(By removing offensive buffs from stats this makes stat choices purely a utility/defensive choice. This puts more choice importance on Passives and Skill choice for offense) Something like that might also allow for better passive trees and skill upgrades.

7

Okay, yeah, it is actually scary how few single target skills the sorceress got. I can count 1-3, and not even sure about all of those, as the tooltip is unclear. That should definitely change regardless. Seems like a balance issue for the sorc currently, if they have no strong singletarget boss-killer skills.

I’d split it between single target and aoe based on an assumtpion that all classes would have somewhere around 50/50 of each type of skill.
Whereas it seems unlikely that a sorc would ever have a great selection of physical melee skills.
But if sorc wont have any decent amount of single target skills, then that wont work :confused:

If too few skills are single target, maybe it would be possible to make some kind of split between singletarget+cleave attacks vs. larger aoe attacks instead.

Or some other type of separation entirely, that works well for all classes.

Yeah, I think that could be a good way to go too.

Proc chance, attack speed, and even resource cost reduction are still kinda offensive, but a bit less directly than +dmg ones (even attack speed comes with an increased resource cost, that makes it more balanced imo).

I would prefer not to have crit chance as an attribute bonus, solely based on how well that thing can end up scaling, if not handled carefully.

Edit: In any case, I completely agree with the goal of trying to make all attributes worth it for all classes. Unlike what Blizzard has shown so far.
The rest is just nitpicking :slight_smile:

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8

Yeah I’d say that would be the best way about it. Is just the Defensive/Utility way.
Agree on Crit Chance. I’d prefer it on 1-2 pieces of gears as possible affixes and that be it. or just not at all and keep Crit Chance as static amount but that is another subject all together. Good overall discussion, gave me some different points to look at. :+1:

Hopefully they make some improvements or just have things they didn’t show on the update ready for their Blizzconline in February.

9

I do like the idea that each stat does something different for each one. It isn’t a bad thing to have main stat. As long as it isn’t a straightforward no brainer on what to spend your points on.

I like the idea that I got off of a video that I forget who made it. The person said that you could have stat break points of 50 points. Every 50 points of stat in a given skill could give you a benefit. Make sure those benefits are about equal in what they give but different. Then that would be better than the straightforward approach of what they have right now.

But having the same for all is just gonna bring back the stat dump they are trying to avoid.

10

Here is my take on the Attribute System:

There should be

  • one Offensive Attribute
  • one Defensive Attribute
  • one Mobility Attribute
  • one Resource Management Attribute

… and each of these Attributes should have a different name and slightly different bonuses for each class, but still remain true to their function.

Could look similar to this:

The numbers and bonuses used in this example are just for the purpose of illustrating the concept and be adjusted and changed later.

Both the Sorc and the Barbarian would e.g. get x% increased damage from the Offensive Attribute (which for the Barbarian is called Strength and for the Sorc it is called Intelligence) as the primary bonus from that Attribute, but they would get different Secondary Bonuses from it.

The Barbarian would get increased Weapon Damage, Pierce through x% of Enemies Armor and Crushing Blow, … while the Sorceress would get Increased Innate Spell/Skill Damage, Pierce through x% of Enemies Resistances and Increased Area of Effect from it…

… but overall these Secondary Bonuses are smaller that the Primary Bonus, since they are primarily there for flavor and class fantasy.

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11

The problem with most attribute systems is BOTCHED caster handling. Yes, it’s obvious that you need strength and dexterity to hit hard with a club. It isn’t so obvious what matters for CASTING SPELLS. Shooting is also non-obvious. For ex. dexterity improves aim/critical, but it doesn’t affect damage directly. When you shoot using a bow, then your damage is mostly based upon arrow penetration power which is derived from it’s quality and speed, which is derived from the STRENGTH needed to use that bow.

12

There is a way to bypass this issue.

Instead of having STR, DEX, INT, etc, instead have:

  • Offensive Ability
  • Defensive Ability
  • Mobility
  • Resource Management

… and then let these things turn into different Attributes for each class.

Offensive Ability turns into Strength for the Barbarian, into Intelligence for Sorc, into Precision for a Ranged Archer Class, into Dexterity for an Agile Melee Class, into Spirit for a Necromancer, etc.

Defensive Ability can turn into Constitution for Barbarian, into Magic Armor for a Sorc, into Survivalbility for a Ranged Archer Class, etc.

That is how you bypass this lore- and theme- issue that would come with trying to make the same attributes useful for all classes.

13

I do like the example you have, at first I was kind of doubtful. But after thinking about it for a bit and going over different things in my head, I ended up liking it.
I’d just say while we can have offensive based things like “Attack Speed”, imo I wouldn’t really want damage on attributes as I feel it becomes too good to pass up. But the idea of things like “Crushing Blow Chance” or other similar stats could make the choice between attributes interesting.

I don’t mind the attributes they have right now, on all classes. But they give this idea that they will do different things on each class. Right now the choice they show is just an illusion. Obviously we don’t know how the numbers would actually effect characters. But a damage stat just becomes a main stat.

Strength - Stun Res, Bleed Res, Defense
Intelligence - Burn Res, Freeze Res, All Res
Willpower - Poison(DOT)Res, DOT duration reduction, Healing Received
Dexterity - Slow Res, Knockdown Res, Dodge Chance

These could be the potential base for all classes. Then you start adding in things like Attack Speed, Crushing Blow, Overpower, etc. The goal would be to distribute things in a way that makes people think about their build. Instead of going “Str has damage so dump the majority into Str.”

Something like Proc Chance, for on hit effects and Dots would be nice. Armor/Res Pierce is nice if balanced well but could become a main stat if too op. DOT duration bonus might be nice.

Damage could come majority from Skills, Passives, and Gear. While attributes compliment those things depending on how you’re gonna build your character.

14

I think it is just a matter of balance. If the amount of damage you get from it is too large, sure, then it is too OP, but if it is balanced correctly, aka not too high, not too low, then other Attributes become a choice as well.

Also remember that D4 is likely not going to be like D3 in regards to combat where you can pile up 100s of enemies, not take any damage or get stunned, etc, so you may still wanna put a decent amount of points into the Defensive Attribute and into the Mobility Attribute, to get damage reduction, CC Resistance, more Dodge Rolls, faster Movement Speed, etc,

Also, if you put all points into Offense, you are also gonna have much less resource available and downtimes from Cooldown will be longer.

Mainstat in D3 was a combination of giving you increased damage and increasing your toughness, not just increasing your damage, so I would say that if you would give each single attribute both a damage increase in one way or another, plus a defense increase, then it is much more similar to Mainstat than having clearly defined roles for the attributes where one attribute give increased damage.

In the example picture I shared each Attribute has 50 Points in it, and you gain 50% increased damage from the offensive attribute and a minor amount of other bonuses.

Compared to the other Attributes, which have the same amount of points in it, to which amount did the Increased Damage had to be reduced to, to consider the other Attributes an option compared to it, if I may ask?

40%? 35%? 30%? 25%?

15

I actually liked it when it was just attack and defense. Yeah, I agree, it looks a bit lazy. However, it does make sense. Only having attack and defense means any class can use any item, unless it has a benefit to a specific class skill. It also makes D4 different from all the other games that have the usual ability stats.

But, the old fashioned gamer in me would miss seeing the tried and true method of a melee class having strength or dexterity (agility if you will) or a caster class having intelligence or wisdom (spirit if you will) and of course each class having constitution or vitality to increase the amount of life the character has.

Also, having the tried and true ability attributes would allow a character to have more than just a cookie cutter wudjo rhyker end game build. What if there is a use for a Barbarian to have dexterity (agility) or even intelligence? Heck, while you are at it, why not the Sorcerer (ess if female) with strength or dexterity (agility)?

Some players like to have fun, not just copy and paste from a game site or a streamer. I know, I do. More stats, more options. Bring on D4. I want to Barbarian.

RAWR!