D4 should have an improved version of D2's Attribute System

General Discussion
1

I kinda get it why the devs did not bring back an Attribute System in D4 (yet).

D2’s Attribute System had some issues and in ~98% of all cases lead to players having the same set-up for how they are spending their Attribute Points:

  • STR: just enough for gear

  • DEX: just enough for gear (and eventually Max Block)

  • VIT: everything else

  • ENG: nothing.

I have a few ideas and thoughts on how an Attribute System can work, without running into the problems that it faced in D2:

#1 Remove attribute requirements from gear

Make gear independent from Attributes, so that gear and Attributes are two separate things.

That way you can free up ways to let attributes to do something else than just being required for wearing gear.

#2 Every attribute needs to have a distinct role/purpose.

  • one attribute for increasing your damage (offense)

  • one attribute for improving your survivability (defense)

  • one attribute that improves your movement (mobility)

  • one attribute that deals with resource management (resource)

#3 The attribute that takes the place of D2’s Energy, actually has to be useful

Energy was the most useless attribute in D2 (for the vast majority of builds), because there were so many ways to regain your Mana easily, like from Mana Leech, Warmth or the Meditation Aura on a merc, etc.

Mana Leech or Resource Leech will probably not be a thing in D4, so this new attribute should primarily revolve around Resource Cost Reduction instead of increasing a characters maximum amount of resource, because all classes will benefit from this.

Conclusion

Taking all of this into account, the most basic Attribute System that can be drawn from this would be the following:

  • Offensive Attribute: increases damage by x% per point

  • Defensive Attribute: reduces damage taken by x% per point

  • Mobility Attribute: increases movement speed by x% per point

  • Resource Attribute: reduces resource costs by x% per point

Further Improvements

To spice things up a little, you can also add secondary and tertiary bonuses to each attribute, like x% increased maximum life, resistances, crowd control resistance, critical hit chance, increased resource generation/regeneration rate and eventually cooldown reduction.

These secondary and tertiary bonuses can even be class specific, and you would end up with Class-specific Attribute Systems that could function similar to these (the following is just for illustrating the concept):

https://imgur.com/Jv9oLO8
https://imgur.com/0SQy5QP
https://imgur.com/4z4p36B
https://imgur.com/6IGljFT

Closing Words

Now, regardless of an Attribute System in D4 being more basic or more fancy, the important thing is that there actually is an Attribute System at all. Although the Attribute System in D2 had its issues, it still was such an iconic feature and it always is fun to spend points into something.

Please Blizzard, let Diablo 4 have an Attribute System! Make it happen!

11 Likes
2

It would be nice to see them try to bring it back and fix the problems with the system rather than “it didn’t work well, let’s get rid of it”.

It adds a nice layer to character building, even if it’s not always the most exciting thing in the world.

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3

If D4 will have a possibility for a barb (for example) to equip a bow (which I doubt will happen), it would be nice to have adaptive attributes growth on character level up. That is, if you want to play “bow barb build”, find some bow as soon as possible and start using it, so you ll build up your dex stat needed to equip better bows later. If you are leveling with swords, your str stat will grow instead of dex, and so you’ll be unable to use bows (or any other items which require high dex to equip).

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4

yeah, it doesn’t has to be perfect, just something reasonable, even if it is a bit more basic.

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5

Maybe they should just make the ADA powers into an attribute system.

And tie it into more stuff than just the three inherent effects (proc rate, durations); like each skill having a modification for each ADA power unlocking at certain thresholds. Could solve another big missing element in D4 with skill modifications.

Personally I dont really care much about an attribute system though. So I dont have (for once) particularly strong opinions about such systems either.
But if there was an attribute system, I am not sure I would want to see attributes that gave “all dmg”, “all defense” etc. Seems a bit boring.
Maybe have each attribute give different kinds of dmg, defense etc. One risk can be that the attributes end up pushing your character down a certain path however (just like ADA powers tie-in to gear risks doing in D4), where because you pick one attribute to focus on, it determines all other choices for your character.

Maybe a more atomized attribute system could help with that;
A system where you have categories of attributes, like offense, defense etc. But within these categories you have individual stats, like in your example
Imgur
When you spend points you do not put points into Offense, but have to choose between weapon dmg, skill dmg, percing or AoE radius.
But 1 point into one of these increases the overall “Offense” attribute, which gives you a part of the benefit of all the other affixes. Might even give bonuses that were not among those you could select initially.

So lets say you put 10 points into AoE Radius, you get the full benefit of that affix, but because you have 10 points into offense, you get a bonus to all the different affixes in the attribute. The bonus would have been the same as if you had placed 5 points into AoE and 5 points into weapon dmg.
That way, you make focused choices, where the attribute bonus is a smaller part. And thus might have a less deterministic effect on your build.

Or the system could allow you to put points into the overall offense attribute, vs. into the individual stats, giving you a bit of everything, vs. more of a single stat. Making it a “jack of all trades” vs. specialization trade-off.
Like get 9% AOE Radius, or get 3% wpn dmg, 3% skill dmg, 3% aoe radius, 3% pierce. So the jack of all trades choice givers you more stats overall, but unfocused, and thus less powerful.

Even then, I dont think I would have “Offense”, “Defense” etc. Rather mix it up more.
With the ADA powers as attributes it could be stuff like:

Angelic:
Buff Duration
Single Target dmg
Life

Demonic:
Debuff Duration
Attack Speed
Magic/elemental dmg reduction

Ancestral:
Proc chance
AoE Radius
Physical dmg reduction

5 Likes
6

I like this idea.

It has similarities to how Wolcen did its Attribute System, where you have 4 attributes and each attribute increases your damage, but also gives another effect.

I do not like ADA at all.
It almost feels to me as if they have randomly thrown together random affixes under the umbrella of one of the three powers.
Dunno, it just feels off to me.

7

Yeah, was partly thinking of Wolcen. I like the concept in their system, even if the balance is messed up.

I agree if they made it into an attribute system (or a skill modification system), then the bonuses should feel thematically more coherent. Was just an example. I think it makes thematic sense that angelic would have buff duration and demonic would have debuff duration though. Seems to fit the themes of light/dark, good/evil - ignoring for a moment any debate on whether angels in Diablo are good.

Not a fan of ADA being tied to item affixes at all. Not in the way it was shown at least. That really risks pushing builds into pre-determined directions. If you can only get crit chance by going Angelic, and that also is the only way to get +specific skills, or +fire resist etc. That would greatly limit build choices.
I have to assume even Blizzard can see the problem in that design at some point, and it is not what they are going for.

But ADA representing different paths you can take your character, maybe even with some story/quest/faction interaction (a bit like Grim Dawn). That could be interesting. More so than str, dex etc. As long as there is still plenty of freedom for creativity within (and between) those paths.

1 Like
8

I think I saw your post on another forum the other day. I don’t know, to me your proposal just sounds different than the D2 model, not necessarily better.

Personally, I like the number crunching and the tradeoffs of the D2 system. I.e. I can use a stormshield but I’ll have to get to 156 strength and then get max block too which means I’ll have less points to put in vit. I always thought stats were pretty decent in D2. The hellfire torch give +10-20 to all attributes, well if you use heavy str and dex requirements gear you can save points from str and dex and end up with more life. It ends up being like + 45 to vitality (+90 -120 life) and (30-45 to mana) which I think is kind of cool.

I suppose stats in D2 = life for most builds and you get to do some cool min/maxing which I enjoy (which the min/maxing here is very simple and easy to do but it adds value to items that give +stats).

Also, the stats in D2 kind of do do what you’re proposing - str gives physical damage, dex give attack rating, defense, and block, vit is life and energy is resource. However, the stats aren’t balanced (which is fine) cause most players will go with minimums and max vit as you suggested. True, energy is almost always a junk stat but that’s because of how easy resource regeneration is as you stated.

By the way, this part seems so weird to me. Max block is not an eventuality in D2, players either choose max block or max vita. I would write it as-
Dex - enough for gear or enough for max block

Offensive - this is strength as is in D2 pretty much
Defensive - this is pretty much dex
mobility - vitality instead
Resrouce - energy

If all the stats are equally powerful then there isn’t an optimal way to assign stat points. This may lead to players messing up their builds (which is apparently why we ended up w D3 stats). If there is an optimal way to distribute stats then your system is the D2 system but mobility is now a stat instead of boots and tele. Again, I kind of like the tradeoffs with stat requirements on items. It gives some less powerful low requirement gear a chance to be viable. There should be plenty of combinations that are viable and strong and different ways to make the same build.

9

Yes, on reddit.

This is what I was referring to, I just choose different words to express it.

Very much and I definitely took inspiration from that, but instead of DEX increasing ranged damage, STR just increasing and melee/physical damage (I know, a few others as well) (and Energy basically being INT, which in many games increases spell damage),the offensive attribute now increases all damage for all classes, because I did not want every class to have SRT, DEX and INT and they all being different attributes that basically do the same thing, which is increasing damage.

Defense is VIT, not DEX and Mobility is DEX, not VIT.

And the Resource Attribute is basically an improved and class-specific replacement for Energy, with resource cost reduction and cooldown reduction.

This is not a bad thing, on the contrary.

There should be a respec option (probably at a cost), so this is not much of an issue.

Which also isn’t really a problem if the balance is not too much off.

Because if you are saying that just because there is an optimal way to spend your points there shouldn’t be an attribute system because there is only one correct way anyways, then by the same logic we should remove most skills, passives, items and even whole classes as well, because they are not the best.

I see it the same way as you.

I hope they are realizing it as well. Maybe in the next quarterly update they have an alternative replacement to show.

1 Like
10

D3 is doing that ways.

D3 is doing similar way too.

Conclusion :-
D3 Attribute System more close to your idea, why not based on it directly :slight_smile:

11

D3 you have an unlimited amount of points that allows you to max everything, while with this one here you only have a limited amount of points, which means that that you can not max everything, aka you have to make meaningful choices.

The attributes are also very different in D3 and my proposal.

1 Like
12

Not really since D3 uses mainstat where your primary stat gives you damage, every stat gives you a bonus defensive trait, and you get no points to assign with each level.

Which you generally only stack your primary stat anyway because it’d be stupid to stack one of the ones not also giving you +X% damage.

The OP’s idea is at least trying to offer more choice about building a character. All the stats would in theory be useful for every class, and you’d be able to assign points.

It’d all need to be balanced and maybe the exact things each stat offered tweaked, but the underlying idea is better than what Diablo 1, 2, or 3 uses for attributes.

4 Likes
13

That is a nice compliment, ty!

==================================

Maybe I should have added to in my original post that you only have a limited amount of points available, like in D2, so that it is clear that it is not like in D3 where you have unlimited points and can max everything.

14

You’d think that would be common knowledge; however it’s sometimes hard to remember that some of the people who play Diablo 3 have never touched the previous Diablo games. A bit of a conundrum honestly hehe.

2 Likes
15

yeah, in the reddit thread I made, the comment with the most upvotes is saying that my suggesting is exactly like D3’s Paragon System, although there are some significant differences, but these only seem to strike those of us that played D2…

I hope that most of the D4 team also had at least a somewhat deeper look into D2 nad understands what made it great, but at least in regards to itemization I think they didn’t look too deep into it or they didn’t like D2’s itemization.

Also the ADA system is imo a terrible replacement for an Attribute System, because it is basically just affixes that spawn on items instead of a separate system and the bonuses they give seem kinda nice and almost randomly mixed together.

16

Overall its a better design than D3, and could surpass D2.
Dont get me wrong, but damage reduction and movement speed should be no stats.
Stacking damage reduction will be a most desireable stat because its too OP on its own, and thats why getting damage reduction % is VERY rare on D2 items.
Removing HP for mobility makes no sense as well.
This will just mean that rangers/squishy builds will have a huge adventage against melee and therefore almost being remotely to not chase-able.
Also you remove tankiness as well and promote chances for 1 Hit-Ko or even more burst damage.
You could say that thats why the damage reduction % is for (really its a total of 100% to put on stats, every statpoint for balance reason will be pretty small feel almost useless).
But how do you plan on handling elemental damage?
All into 1 damage reduction %? Makes no sense tbh, its just like putting highest DPS of any weapon as your main damage in D3.
Therefore HP makes more sense than DR %, because even if the damage output is of incoming damage is high, its still not as OP as reducing a huge amount of % damage. It will render Damage/glasscannon builds to useless depending the amount of % of DR that can be stacked/points being spent.
I wouldnt mind seeing % of elemental resistances for easier balance reasons.

17

Honestly, while I appreciate the developers intentions with the ADA system, I would rather have a decent and strong attribute system instead. Some folks may not realize, but if done right; an attribute system adds a powerful layer of customization that’s akin to a skill system imo.

3 Likes
18

The damage reduction in my proposed system has “diminishing returns” (although I am not sure if that is the correct word in this context).

E.g., when you put 100 points into the Offensive Attribute, you gain 100% increased damage, but when you put 100 points into the Defensive Attribute, you do not gain 100% Reduced Damage Taken, but 50% Reduced Damage Taken.

40 points = 29.9% Reduced Damage Taken
50 Points = 33.3% Reduced Damage Taken
100 Points = 50% Reduced Damage Taken.

Because otherwise you could easily become immune to damage, but with flatening the curve, this is not possible.

What I am referring to is like when you go from 99% Reduced Damage Taken to 99.5% Reduced Damage taken, you do not take an additional 0.5% less damage, but actually 50% less damage.

Also, damage reduction from other sources like item or passive/active skills would NOT be additive with this, but rather multiplicative.

That is why you could never reach 100% Reduced Damage Taken.

Damage Reduction in D2 only applied to Physical Damage and it was additive instead of being multiplicative (which is what my system does).

And you know why it was so rare in D2?
Because unlike elemental resistance, physical resistance was not reduced when going into nightmare and hell and the physical resistance cap was only 50% (unlike elemental resistances, which was 75%).

So if there would not have been a cap on physical damage reduction and/or damage reduction would have been more widely available, you easily could have gotten large amounts of physical resistances quite easily.

In my proposal, % Reduced Damage Taken is basically nothing else than additional hit points, aka Vitality (and unlike in D2, it reduces all damage, not just physical).

I do not see how, especially not when you consider the other bonues besides Increased Movement Speed the Mobility Attribute gives you:

Melee characters will gain

  • Faster Hit Recovery from it (or an increased Stagger Meter for your character, depending on which system you are going with), so they will not that easily get stun-locked/micro stunned.
  • more Stamina, which gives them more Dodgerolls / Sideteps or something like that.
  • CC Resistances which causes them to be less affected by things like stun, freeze, immobilize effects, slow, etc…

and some of these are more important for melee classes than for ranged classes.

one-hit-kills should not exist and also, with increased Stamina, you can use your Dodgeroll/Sidestep ability more often, which allows you to get out of these one-hit-kill attack zones.

Also, you can get killed more easily even with a lot of hit points if you get stunlocked, so your survivabilty would increase if you put more points into the Mobility Attribute, rather then in the Defensive Attribute that just gives you more effective hit points.

Something similar applies to CC Resistance.

Elemental damage would also get reduced by the 'x% Reduced Damage Taken" from the Defensive Attribute.

On top of that there would be individual resistances (and also armor dodge and energy shield, etc) for fire, lightning, frost, poison, physical and maybe bleed and also arcane/magic damage.

I do not see how, since it is multiplicative and it will not be possible to reach 100% Reduced Damage Taken ever.

HP and Reduced Damage Taken is basically exactly the same, with the only difference being healing.

It does not matter if you have 100% more HP or if you take 50% less damage.
Or if you have 200% more HP or take 75% less damage.
Or if you have 300% more HP or take 87.5% less damage.
…

You see, it is not overpowered. It just depends on the balancing.

19

As you said, it all depends how it is balanced.
But if you put very low numbers of HP on character build, HP regen will suffer or profit hugely from this, as well as other affixes like Bleeding would be too OP since low HP numbers.
What about crits.
Will crits override DR at all or no? If it overrides it then you get One-Hit-Ko chances again.
Basically you could balance with diminishing returns the damage output of everything, but being honest its pretty complex to calculate (and even for players to understand) every source of damage by one single reduction source, since you are adding diminishing returns to this.
And im pretty sure Blizz doesnt want to make players think too much with % and additionally with diminishing returns in it.
This will just confuse too many players.
Diminishing returns is a nice feature but its better to be used for something that doesnt matters as much like they did in D2 with magic find and not into a core feature like damage reduction.

Care to explain this?
Are you meaning that 99% DR from diminishing returns would be for example 49% total DR?

Not even above 50% of total DR should be reached since of what i said earlier… or else
Glascannon or damage builds will be rendered useless and everyone will go pretty tanky and/or squishy build.

This will still mean that PVP will be unbalanced AF cos ranger classes will be so fast so that you will have 0 chance to chase them as melee… even if you put movement speed points in your melee char the ranger class will still have adventage by default.

It would make more sense that squishy classes get vitality instead of even more mobility tbh.

20

Just like in D2, characters would get +x Life per Level up (or like in D3 where they got VIT per level up).

You also should get +x life from items and passive skills.

Bleeding should be reduced by Reduced Damage Taken as well.

No, why should they?

No, not the damage output, but the damage input.

And that already is being done in Diablo 3.
Just have a look at armor or resistances in the details section.

And there are also already several sources of Dr in D3:

  • armor
  • resistances
  • damage reduction
  • reduced damage taken from ranges attacks
  • reduced damage taken from melee attacks
  • reduced damage taken from elites
  • dodge chance
  • block
  • etc…

All of the defensive bonuses I show here are already in D3 and work either similar or exactly the same.

As I said, it is not really diminishing returns. One is increasing something that is uncapped (increasing damage), while the other one is reducing something that eventually can reach 0%.

I do not know the technical term for that, but it is not diminishing retruns.
Diminishing returns would be if the increased damage output curve would flatten, but not one that can eventually reach 0%.

50% DR is basically a 100% increase in EHP
75% DR is basically a 200% increase in EHP
87.5% DR is basically a 300% increase in EHP

and that is not diminishing returns.

What I mean is if you already have 99% DR and then go to 99.5%, you take 50% less damage than before.

Let’s say an attack deals 10.000 damage.
With 99% DR you take 100 damage.
With 99.5% DR you only take 50 damage.

So although the increase from 99% to 99.5% is “just” 0.5%, it actually is much more significant than from 5% to 5.5%.

I do not understand this logic. WHY will they be useless?

Are you saying this in the context of PvM or PvP or both?

They will also be squishy AF and you have a lot of CC effects like stuns from Leap, Ground Stomp, Charge, and Primal Axe (which is basically Ancient Spear) can pull enemies to you and slow them) and you eventually also have bleed effects.

And if there also is something like a Paladin/Crusader, you have Shield Bash/Shield Charge and Judgement, etc…

So it is by far not as unbalanced as you suggest.