I was just watching Rhykker’s vid going through the latest D4 news and I had a (probably not unique) thought about respeccing.
I understand that Blizz are trying to strike a balance between no respecs ever, and completely free respecs. What Blizz announced re: progressively more effort required to respec the deeper into your spec you are makes sense to me.
However, further on that, one thing that occurred to me was the RP aspect of respecing.
To me, if I think about it in a real-world application, it makes no sense that if I make a career choice to become a doctor, that I am stuck being a doctor for the rest of my life. Similarly, if I am a doctor and choose a different career path, I cannot become an engineer overnight; sure, there may be some aspects of my career as a doctor which translates to engineering (they are both based in science); however, there is still a massive knowledge gap to be bridged, which takes effort. Furthermore, just because I bridge that gap from doctor to engineer, does not mean I have completely forgotten how to be a doctor; sure, I’d be a bit rusty, I’d have to do a few catchup courses perhaps, but the knowledge doesn’t disappear completely.
Moving this into D4 respeccing.
Perhaps there is an initial cost of learning a specific skill; but once you have learnt that skill it sticks with you for life
as you use that skill more and more, you become more proficient at it; perhaps with an exponential learning curve, so moving from novice to journeyman does not take long but going from master to grand master takes almost a lifetime.
when you do not use that skill, you become less proficient at it; perhaps an inverse exponential degradation curve, so going from grand master back to master happens quickly but going from journeyman back to novice takes quite some time.
as in the real world, this type of system would allow people to become a jack of all trades/master of none, or a specialist in a specific skill. While also allowing people, who choose to change career (spec) to do so, but that decision comes with consequences (just like real life).
It does however make perfect sense you cant go from being a brain surgeon to an astronaut in the matter of a few seconds.
Nothing is static. If you leave the field for 20 years, to become an engineer instead, there will be a ton of knowledge you dont have, even if you have perfect memory of the stuff you knew back then.
Anyway, Diablo is not real life and shouldnt try to be imo.
I do think an interesting respec system could be if all skills started at 0 affinity. Then when “equipping” them on the skill bar, over many hours, you build up the affinity for the skill, and make it stronger. Like maybe 50% stronger over 50 hours or whatever. The moment you switch out any skill, ALL your skills went back to 0 affinity.
Their words are fine. But we have yet to see them implement a meaningful cost.
Seems extremely likely that it ends up as “meaningful” as the cost for empowering GRifts etc.
What’s the value in a respec cost? How does it make the game better? I’d argue that the only value it has is for e-peening, as in “look at how leet/hardcore I am, I have allocated all my points optimally with no do overs. And the choices I made are just so meaningful!”
If you don’t want to respec, then don’t. You can be like the SSF’s who want special recognition for the restrictions they put on their own play. But why do I have to face a cost or make a whole new character if I want to try a different skill or new build?
Everyone is just going to follow build guides and allocate all their points all exactly the same way anyway to what ever the meta says they should, so why bother? Restrictions on respecs will lead to even less build variety than we have now.
It makes builds more balanced. It means you can’t just pick the strengths for each challenge in front of you, and ignore any weaknesses. No more picking the boss kill build for killing a boss, then switch to an aoe build for killing a group of monsters etc.
Respec limitations is a requirement for making a good A-RPG tbh. Only way to get build diversity.
Because people don’t do that when they can freely respec? Nothing changes there.
With respec limitations we might at least have a chance for way more different builds to choose from.
My issue with limiting respecs or putting higher and higher costs on respecs is this it artificially limits testing and experimentation.
Honestly, when I’m leveling up a character, I don’t experiment much. I find a skill I like, pump it up, and run through whatever campaign there is. Once I get to endgame, that’s when I start to experiment and test things because the full game is finally open to me.
If anything, the journey to endgame is where limitations and tough choices should lie. The OP made some great suggestions about implementing a system that rewards players for sticking with a build by allowing most of that experience gained to be retained.
Lastly, if an affinity system of sorts is added, then it needs to have a really long journey but not be infinite, i.e., Paragon 0-100 length when it was first implemented. I would also go as far as saying if a player stops playing for a month, they will come back to a skill with a degraded affinity.
That’s really what I’m driving at I guess. If I use Multishot all day every day for years but occasionally do some testing for an hour here or there on an item’s interaction with a different skill or whatever and hop right back on Multishot, then I shouldn’t been penalized one bit. The fact that I spent years using Multishot is what should matter. Now if I stop using it, it should degrade.
I know, I know… I’ve rerolled Diablo chars 100s of times over the past 2 decades, but rerolling a char to test item and skill mechanics for empirical analysis and documentation for myself or the community is just asinine. Have you seen the vague tooltips? There is a lot of critical information that is not explained that needs to be known and having to pay to know it or having to resort to youtube is ridiculous and unacceptable.
You are talking about Dual Classing in D&D. It’s good to be human. If done right, just like it real life, it can can be a real game changer. No pun intended of course.
If you were allowed to keep previous skills then you would in time have access to all skills which is what Blizz and a lot of other players don’t want.
No, it doesn’t. The ability to respec has very little relevance to game balance. Using D3 as a guide, when was the time the game was best balanced? How many changes were made to game balance that would have drastic consequences for those who made the “right” choice at the time, just to have a build modified dramatically, either through item or skill changes.
I would argue that exact opposite. With no respect cost, I can freely try out different builds and then choose one that I prefer to play. Moreover, I can play a couple different build. For example, one that my be more solo focused and another group focused.
Having a high respec cost will drive more players to play the optimal build or simply have them quit the game not wanting to have go through the entire leveling process again.
Contrary, it is extremely important for balance imo.
Different builds will be at the top, if you can respec all the time, vs. if you cant.
The more specialization is possible, the fewer viable builds will exist. Similar to when you increase difficulty.
Yeah, but for each activity, you will have fewer viable builds to choose from. Resulting in much less interesting choices.
Simple scenario for Class 1: You can select a build that is meta for solo or a different build that is meta from groups. Is it really an interesting choice to be excluded from the multiplayer meta or gimping yourself for solo?
Do you feel the game at release will be perfectly balanced?
Do you think the developer’s will tweak skills and items?
If your answer to these questions is yes, then players can make a “good” choice at the time with the facts they know that later proves to be a poor selection due to the developer’s decisions that the player has no control over.
They are not trying to strike a balance considering they said respecs are unlimited. It will just have a cost associated with it. I’ll guarantee you that those who play often will not find the costs significant. I’ll also guarantee this myth that people constantly change specs on a whim is false.
Most people have 3, solo, group, and speedfarming. I play one. But that was after many years of experimenting various builds to know what I like. I’ll try a new one when they make changes to sets or abilities. But I pick a build for the season and stick with it. But I would rather have 1 character than three for those 3 activities.
Likewise I’d rather have the ability change my mind without having to reroll a new character. They want you to experiment while leveling, then settle on what you like most by endgame. And that’s fine. They want to encourage you to keep what you picked, but allow you change your build if you see fit.
Hardly seems like finding a middle ground, more like giving you the freedom to experiment but making you think twice before doing it.
I am not arguing for zero respecs. At all.
Each patch, give everyone a free respec. And in between you can get a few respecs by paying for them somehow (currency or cooldown).
Or pick one that works decently for both.
Also, the solo/group difference shouldn’t be as huge as in D3. Get rid of the silly group buffs, get rid of zDPS.
How does promoting mediocrity in both solo and group play make things more interesting?
I hope so. “Should” does not mean “is”. It is clear to me with world bosses and other proposed game mechanics that group play may not be obligatory but certainly is a main focus of the game.
My point is no limit it at all with little cost to respec. I want to play different builds where I have collected items that support it. I want to experiment and tweak things. I may want to try out a build/allocation of stat points for an hour and another build for an hour and another and then make a decision. As someone else said,
Players can play the game within the constraints the developers provide. If you personally think that drop rates are 2X what you want, then only pick up every other item. If respecs were for free (or nearly free), you as a player can choose to be locked into a build and make a new character to test it. Personally, I believe in freedom and self-discipline. If you want things to be harder there are ways for you to accomplish that rather than forcing your ideas of what is fun on others.
More builds will be in the mediocrity area.
Besides, it is not like the specialized builds wont be viable too, they will just be really good at some things and really bad at others, which might still be viable compared to a build that is decent at everything.
With free respecs, only the few specialized builds will be viable.
Even if grouping is a major part of the game, wouldnt have to mean that group builds are significantly different from solo builds. As long as you dont have group buffs and heals.
I get that. I just think it would be terrible for the game.
Yeah. And the developer should provide such constraints.
Telling people to make up their own game rules is silly imo. That is not how a game works. It is not a place for freedom and self-discipline, it is a place for hard rules.
Likewise, there should be a hardcore gamemode, rather than just people deleting their own characters if they die.