D4: relax or limited respec, flexibility vs committeement

General Discussion
1

As title, what is your opinion on respec. How limited should it be & why. I encourage think about pros and cons of the positions. This is clearly not a black/ white issue.

I will list a few pro and con to get the thinking going.

Limited respec ( you can respec but it will have some limit or need limited resource)

  • you are committed to your choice
  • you are “unique” ( define by your skill choice)
  • make it meaningful to create more than one char for each class for different builds
  • hardcore, require game knowledge
  • char may need to be scrap and redo. Deter new players
  • often end up one trick pony ( think of d2, blizzard sorc has optimal places to farm, while awful in others)

Relax/ free respec

  • players will least likely to follow guide and more open to experiment
  • more newbie friendly
  • you can have multiple sub builds: load out ( Ala d3)
  • related to formal point, more builds to play = more time to gear and more variety in gameplay
  • no need to build char of same class anymore ( expect seasonal reset)

I am sure there are more points. Please feel free to discuss.

Btw, I support ( but I am open mind to change my mind, which I hope others are as well) relax respec as I think the pros of it trumps the cons.

1 Like
2

I think the best way is to limit respecing. In early levels, you will find more ways, to respec more freely early on, to experiment. But you’ll eventualy have to make up your mind, and get comited in your choices in later stages.

Now how do you not keep your respecs for later? We’ll you’ll have certain lvl threshold, where you can take advantage of the opportunity. You pass that point and it’s gone forever. If it’s a resource it will have a limited time/or lvl threshold to use, but to compensate you could sell it for some advantge in your journey.

3

One major issue I have regarding D2 is you either have a one trick pony that very good in doing certain areas, and thing ( say chaos runs), and poor even bad in many areas and Task ( like Ubers or cows)
Or a jack or all trade but master of none.

2 main reason is
Monster immunity, and lack of skill point ( due to synergy) to dual or tri element without gimping your damage.

You cannot respec freely to swap element or builds.

ThTs my main issue with limited respec. If we look at d3, I can make 10 different sub build each specialize in a particular task, bounty, t16 speed push, solo, group, support etc

This increase variety in gameplay ( different builds ) and more optimal. ( not one trick pony)

I will get a lot of heat. I prefer my hero to have flexibility of D3 ( I don’t care to be labor fire sorc or no a sorc, I am happy o be just sorc) then the regidity if D2.

I know someone will say. Well you are not suppose to do everything with one char! You create different chars for different task.

I understand which is why I have many char for d2 to farm different contents. But I think it’s silly to making 2 chars of same class ( within a season) when you can have one that do both.

4

Yeah this one is not per se easy to answer since it also depends on what a game is designed for. More pure action and endgame meta that you want to shake up all the time (so reasonably easy respecs are needed for new content or easy new chars that can skip to new endgame meta) or a more older original ARPG experience that is first and foremost about journey plus progression even in the endgame meta and anything else is just optional players can do if want to, where failing sometimes is not the end of the world.

A nice example of that is the death penalty with XP in D2, originally it was annoying but a warning you should be a bit careful and not grind yourself to death to pass a monster over time. Still with how XP worked in those days and even at high levels reasonably recoverable it was just annoying. After they slowed XP growth though and at real high levels only Bhaal runs give them in reasonable amounts, those penalties could easily become 2 or 3 days work to catch up, they became overly punishing instead of just annoying and instead of made you bit careful they made players risk averse.

For example that sorc thingy also became a thing because immunities were to absolute and adding of symbiosis in skills implemented in a way that promoted stacking after 1.10 and runeword bandaids to just ignore those immunities, while it were the immunities (they were absolutely overtuned and too many could be faced at same time) that needed to have a look at as a system as were to absolute overall. (Also does that just stacking of damages sound not incredibly familiar as a design choice for any D3 player? :stuck_out_tongue: )

Characters were way more flexible before the patches and even more in D2 classic. Also you had the second weapon loadout that in older times were for different type monsters instead of stacking your buffs as now in D2R. That flexibility was destroyed by bad system and wrong reaction to that from Irvine devs after North left, though not sure North devs would have done better.

So absolute answers are hard to give, since it so much depends on how game is designed. If things like permanence are important and the challenge is more as just button mashing on a loadout you read up about on internet or min/maxing I would say low amount respecs that are freed up by playing, not too much sharing of stash between chars since even if great QoL it takes the challenge of new char away too much.
Also it means you have to teach players early about mechanics that will impact builds and give them fair and accurate info about skills, not like D2 did after patches where many tooltips lied and only looking up on internet would tell a less experienced player how they worked or did not work at all even.

It is no problem if bit hard, but it has to be fair. Another thing withD2 I always found could be handled better as an example was Duriel, I get he was meant too teach you about not everything working and that potions are important and love him as that rough edge. Just it would have been nice if Cain or someone else would have told you about potions and immunities for example after failing 2 or three times. I hope they will build in some reaction in D4 from NPC’s if people fail rough edges, giving some usable hints (not the whole answer per se) at what they might miss.

If the game becomes all about action focused endgame meta and shaking it up, respecs will be needed more often and at least available at those shake-ups.

1 Like
5

Quite limited respecs imo.

The topic has been discussed a lot, and it can be done in many different ways.
But the main goal should be; you cant respec between activities. When you respec you do it because it is time to try something new. A choice that means you cant change again for a while, not without significant loss of power anyway.

Because if we can respec all the time, for each enemy or challenge we encounter, the basic concept of having a build loses its meaning. Having strengths and weaknesses you have to play around, becomes irrelevant. Which in turn results in less builds being viable, since only the strengths matter. Weaknesses can be ignored.

Various ways to handle it:

  • Skills grow in power as you use them. After a respec, ALL your skills go back to base level. Then as you use them, over for example 25-50 hours, they grow stronger, maybe doubling in power (dmg, defense, or whatever fits for each skill).
    This way, you can respec relatively freely (should still have a cost though), but you are just going to have a weaker character because of the flip-flopping, where the character never gets really good at anything.
    This is a pretty neat way to handle respeccing tbh, as it offers the freedom to test new builds, and thus is very “newbie” friendly.
    A negative might be that, while it tries to balance (or even reward) sticking to a build, the power of respeccing is just so great that it still ends up being the better way to play. Should be theoretically possible to balance that though. Less certain Blizzard is capable of it.

  • A traditional respec cost: like having a respec token you need to farm for, craft, or acquire from a quest etc. Should be limited in some way, so you cant just stock up endlessly. Like maybe you can only hold 2-3 of these at a time, and the acquisition requirement means you might on average get one respec token per week for example.
    There should then be some other uses for these tokens; like you can spend them to get MF bonuses etc. so they are not wasted if you dont respec.
    The tokens should be character-bound. No way to farm them on different characters to respec another character.

  • Last resort strategy; on top of the token above, have a direct cooldown on how often a token can be used. To ensure that nothing about the acquisition rate creates problems later on.

A few things:
Each major patch should offer a free respec for each character.

During lvling, respecs should be cheaper. For example, you might get a free respec token every 10-20 lvls after lvl 20, while before lvl 20, there is no cost. Or in the “Skill power grows over time” system, there is no reduction for the first 20 lvls (however, skills also haven’t had a chance to grow much at that point, so it isn’t very important in this system).

In regards to PvP; have a dual-spec system where each character can make a PvE build and a PvP build. The system is automatic. Inside PvP areas (or in duels, if such exist), your PvP build is active, otherwise the PvE build is active. The player can never change the which build is active on their own (since that would of course allow free respecs otherwise).

Everything definitely should be doable with one character, and one build.
Stuff like Dmg type immunities are bad, and is what caused issues in D2 imo. Not the lack of respecs.
A fire-only build should struggle against highly fire resistant enemies, of course, but they should be doable.

Agreed. D2 made all kinds of bad design decisions. Limited respeccing was not one of them.
That said, I do think having absolutely no ways to respec is too much. So severely limited respeccing is the optimal imo. Current respec system in D2 is already too lenient.

6

unlimited but expensive

7

No limits. No expense. Players should be able to make whatever character they want and then reshape them.

Either that or unlimited characters with the means to transfer gear between them easily and no respec(t) at all.

4 Likes
8

Mine has always been an unpopular opinion on this. I don’t want to have to make 5 different DH characters to play the way I want. I like to play as GoD for some things which are best with high speed. I like to play as M6 or UE for other things which take more power or precision. I don’t want to have to do the entire journey 5 times for each and every class to fully enjoy the game.

I don’t expect to be able to swap builds on the fly. However if I am running along in a dungeon and find that a different set of tactics will be necessary, I want the option to return to town and refit to tackle those objectives with my best, rather than just be forced to struggle through with an entirely wrong set of gear or skills.

There is a reason why I stopped playing D2 and why I feel buying D2R was wasted money. Respec in that game was harsh and unforgiving. If you made any kind of mistake while building a character you were simply better off scrapping it completely and starting all over. That is not good design.

I understand wanting choices to have meaning. However, A hero is also meant to be adaptable and able to adjust to the situation ahead of them. You should not be required to become an entirely different person to handle things in differing, tactical and intelligent ways.

If I build my Frost Sorceress and then later on discover that the area I need to enter next is entirely resistant or even immune to my abilities, it should not require me to logout and bring in an entirely different Fire spec Sorceress to handle it. I as a Sorc at my base core should be able to adjust and adapt and tune myself to handle whatever new difficulties arise before me.

So in short. I want to only need to make 1 character of each class and not feel gimped for doing so. So Relax Respec, obviously is my opinion.

4 Likes
9

The opposite is true. If we cannot easily respec & customise our char to optimal builds, most people will just play the one META build of the class that can do the most contents, like D2 Hammerdin.

When repec is generous, people will experiment with meme, fun builds. When the need to push, then they revert to META.

A, it doesn’t you still can have the buidl. It just doesn’t define you. Also why does it matters? Its a game, not a marriage, I don’t see value in forcing you to one build.
It feels more empowering, more enjoyable, extend the item hunt, to be able to adjust your build base on contents.

I enjoy my D3 charcter able to switch loadout doing different contents. It feel more empowering than one trick pony.

2 Likes
10

The argument here is that the meta is much wider when you can’t swap into “activity” builds

11

Nah, when you can easily respec, only the builds that are 100% optimized against a challenge will be considered viable.

If we have challenge A, B and C then, and builds can be X%|Y%|Z% efficint against each of those challenges.
Then with free free respecs, you go 100%|Doesn’t matter|Doesn’t matter when doing Challenge A. And for B you go Doesn’t matter|100%|Doesn’t matter. Very few builds will fulfil this criteria, since the amount naturally decreases the closer you get to 100% efficiency.
With no respecs, and having to do challenge A, B and C on the same character, then all kinds of combinations can be equally viable.
75%|75%|75%
74%|75%|76%
85%|65%|75%
75%|100%|50%
And so on.

D2 throws most concept of doing different challenges out the window, due to Monster immunities. The challenge becomes binary; either you can deal dmg to the monster or you can’t.

It is exactly because it is a game that it matters. Making choices, and playing with those choices. That is core game design.

Completely disagreed there. It makes the content meaningless, the choices meaningless, if you just go “Anti-Fire” against Fire Challenge. “Anti-Cold” against “Cold Challenge” etc. Kills build diversity, kills the challenge, kills the meaningful choice.

Then we just play the most obvious build ever, for each enemy/dungeon/activity. Instead of the better gameplay that comes from having to decide on a build with its own strengths and weaknesses, and playing the various content while adjusting to our weaknesses.
The
85%|65%|75%
75%|100%|50%
builds will have different game experiences in each challenge. That is enjoyable imo, that is the core gameplay.

12

I agree with you about D2,

Disagree with you about everything else above.

The argument about the builds is bad imo. It claim 100% of most will play one or few build if not restriction allow, to tackle each contents.

instead of more freedom to play what every they want, but people will play more builds if there is retrictions, knowing the not plyaing the few optimum builds will make tehir char useless.

Many important factors are missing, on top of your assumptions. Different people have diferrent approach to defferent contents & playstyle, & within each content, there will be many variables.

& not rock paper sissors simplicity choices of content A, use build 1, Content B, use build 2 that everyone agree upon.

1 Like
13

All for relaxed respecs. I have no “connection” to my character build as many have said you shoukd have. Maybe some want that and they can just keep that build under a relaxed system. The lack of respecs in D2 didn’t encourage me to try new characters to make new builds. It did the opposite. D3 allowed me to try out tons of stuff on 1 character. It even made it fun to try new classes.

I don’t mind paying for a respec and woukd prefer the old WoW method of growing cost the more you use it with decaying cost the longer you go without.

3 Likes
14

As long as the cost is something significant (which gold isn’t) then an increasing cost could work well imo.
Like 1 respec token for first respec. Next is 2, then 4, then 8 etc. If you havent respecced for a week, the cost goes down 1 step.

15

I am in favour of limited respeccing.

I also would like levelling to work like D2. When you die you lose a percentage of your xp. In earlier levels this is fine as it doesn’t take long to get that xp back. But the higher level you are the more difficult it becomes to reach MAX level. It turns the last levels into a survival game of sorts. I don’t think there should be major advantages to someone who managed to get to level 100 vs level 94-95 players. But the reverence I have for people that can do it, and the pride I would feel for achieving max level for my character would make getting max level a real achievement. A bit off topic but we’re talking about respeccing that I feel is loosely tied to levelling so wanted to include it in the hope devs take it on board.

In response to people saying that easy respeccing stops people playing meta. Lets explore this.

When game launches no meta. People find the meta by playing lots of classes and builds. With limited respeccing, it’s still possible to do this but would have to settle on one eventually. This causes people to make a choice, and likely what they enjoy playing will also come into that choice.

After the games been out long enough for people to look at youtube and get stomped in pvp by certain classes that are obviously op. The meta is formed. Now Blizzard can go in and balance. This will CHANGE the meta.

Now here’s the point I’ve been trying to get to.

After the meta changes and your build that you thought was gonna be op and stomp everything forever, well now it’s more balanced. Instead of being able to immediately respec to the meta build, you can’t. Therefore stopping so much meta existing. If it takes a long time to build characters and max them out, then being a max BiS character is also OP no matter if you play meta, because it’s generally a hard thing to do for a lot of players.

This makes people commit to their class instead of building tons of easy to max alts and respeccing to the meta build with each one whenever balance patches come through.

If you think you should be rewarded for being clever, finding a build and using it well, when it is clearly overtuned or using unexpected not thoroughly tested stuff, you shouldn’t. You should be balanced.

This is an illusions that devs create. The best devs make it feel like you are discovering things for yourself, but it was ofc all designed and built by a dev team. There will be instances where certain abilities were overtuned and used better by the player base than the QA team or combinations of abilities devs did not think to test properly. But these were obviously mistakes that should be fixed. Players shouldn’t be rewarded by not having their builds balanced when they manage to use them in unexpected ways that break the game for everyone else. Everything was designed for you to “feel” like you came up with your own build but it’s not actually the case.

So having to commit to a character with limited respeccing and a very long max level and BiS playtime, will absolutely stop everyone switching to the meta once balance patches drop.

You say it yourself Kaidaw. You want to “easily respec to optimal builds”.

Optimal is meta.

Limited respeccing will stop people easily switching to optimal builds.

2 Likes
16

Free all the way. There’s zero gameplay benefit of limiting respecs.

5 Likes
17

We tried a free everything D3 and it made the game less RPG and more action adventure. I vote for limited and/or very expensive respecs. Give us a reason to roll the same class twice.

1 Like
18

It should at the very LEAST be hard to respec like in D2.

19

Its common that games have free respec. Both wow and d3 got it. And they added several free ones to d2 and then other ways aswell.

So d4 will prolly have it. Its a grinding game after all. Alot of ppl find it annoying to make a new char when they missclick or whatever.

If there is no endgame ppl would prolly make new chars but if we gonna assume there be plenty of endgame so that ppl wont be “done” before season end then respec would prolly be the best option.

I also believe ppl would want to be able to change their build for solo pve, group pve, dungeons, raids, pvp etc.

Im all in making a new character when i wanting to try a new class but when its simply making several chars of same class gets boring.

If its not free it just ends up punishing the casuals. In d2r ppl who struggle with the cost is those who are new to the game.

If things goes as planned d4 will have alot of new players who just started diablo with DI. So yeah i would say free. They want to keep the new playerbase.

2 Likes
20

season reset…
20 chars