D4: Let's Talk World PvP Mechanics

This post discusses implementing world PVP and using a karma system and director AI approach within the player encounter/server logic to create an exciting and frustration free player experience. I am a bit verbose, so TLDR at the bottom :wink:

First, Iā€™d like to give props to the Diablo 4 team for reworking itemization and stat/skill tree concepts. I was pretty put off by what they had initially announced in regards to those categories, and frankly wasnā€™t very excited for this game. The most recent update clearly shows they took community feedback and put in the work to develop much more intuitive, creative, and fun sounding mechanics that now have me extremely excited to play.

That being said, now that the core of the game is coming together better, it has my mind thinking about other aspects of the game, and at the moment, PvP. PvP is something I feel most online RPGs these days just donā€™t do very well. I havenā€™t been hooked by many PvP systems in an RPG. What I really loved about PvP in D2 was how fast paced it was. Youā€™d step out into the Blood Moor and it was like a Dragon Ball Z battle, with people teleporting at high speeds, dodging hammers, bone spears, arrows, just trying to land a killing blow. It was such a rush.

WoWā€™s PvP is probably my number 2, and primarily PvP that took place in the world, not the battlegrounds. Guilds raiding entire areas, wreaking havoc, killing NPCs and players alike. ArcheAgeā€™s PvP would probably have been better than WoW, had rampant hacking not been an issue. The gaming industry has long accepted a flawed premise in their approach to PvP, and that is, that a game where someone can kill you at anytime is not appealing to the mass market, and so in order to make the game accessible to all, they just remove world PvP in most cases, or make it in some way optional in others.

We can probably all agree that we donā€™t like being griefed. Nobody wants to be getting camped while they are trying to make some progress in a game, especially if you donā€™t have all the time in the world, and the hours you get to spend gaming are precious. I never personally have had many occurrences of being griefed in D2, where anyone could hostile you at any time, but alas times have possibly changed, and communities now are more toxic than they used to be. Also, Diablo 4ā€™s player encounter system will be much different than D2, so D2ā€™s PvP system wouldnā€™t really be an exact fit.

Some of us can agree though, that we like world PvP. It stimulates emotion and creates a sense of excitement when you come across a mischievous looking character, unsure if you should prepare for a fight, launch a pre-emptive attack, or if you will breathe a sigh of relief as they choose to spare your life and just be friendly. It increases immersion, because just as there are good and evil people in the real world, the same exists in the game. It makes you even more grateful for the good players, and the evil players at least serve to break up the monotony. Evil players also give good players a sense of purpose. It is satisfying to save weaker players from a strong predator, teaching them a lesson theyā€™ll hopefully remember. It even motivates players to get stronger so they can be the ones to stand up to bullies, and allows weaker players to look up to righteous stronger players as an example of what they might become if they keep playing.

There is something unique about Diablo 4 though that creates a new opportunity for PvP unlike most other online RPGs, and that is how it handles player encounters. So far, not a ton of information has been released about it, but the general idea that has been communicated is that you will randomly encounter players as you explore the world. When you are exploring an area, you will not see every other player in that area, but rather a selection of random players, almost as if the area is a public instance that you are randomly assigned to. This is significant because this means the game can control which players you come into contact with.

In video games, there is a concept of AI referred to as a Director AI. The job of the director AI is to create an enjoyable experience for the player. This means balancing the difficulty of the game in a way that keeps it fun and exciting. For example, if you just won a really hard battle against all odds, a director AI would recognize this and choose not to spawn another really hard enemy as you return to town to heal up. The idea is that is a game just constantly screwed you over, it would not be fun. If it constantly handed everything over to you easily, it would also not be fun. If the game was non-stop maximum intensity conflicts, and never gave you a chance to breathe, youā€™d get burned out. You get the idea.

Alright, so now to tie all these ideas together. I want to see world PvP in Diablo 4. The game itself could be designed to control player encounters in a way to prevent griefing and to prevent a frustrating experience. This could be done by introducing some sort of player karma metric. Players who frequently kill other players could be marked in some way so that other players can see they are evil. Players who kill evil players receive good karma and could even be rewarded in some aesthetic way for achieving certain karma levels. The director AI for player encounters would then be able to control who encounters evil players. Evil players could have their encounters limited to only encountering similar strength characters to prevent griefing of lower levels. Evil players might be less likely to encounter neutral characters who abstain from PvP (less likely, but should still be possible, else it would be stagnant and boring). A player who is killed by an evil player could be prevented from encountering another evil player for a time period. And then of course, there should be a way to consensually duel people, which would have no effect on their karma rating. Displaying who is evil, or if someone turns hostile against you, also gives players a chance to flee or brace themselves, which I think adds some fairness to the whole experience.

There is obviously a lot more that can be fleshed out of these foundational ideas, but I really think that Diablo 4 is in a unique position to create one of the most satisfying PvP experiences to date.

TLDR:

  • World PvP creates an exciting, emotional, and immersive experience.

  • The primary problem with world PvP for most is constant griefing and camping.

  • Diablo 4 introduces a unique player encounter system where all players in the same area are not in the same instance, but will randomly be assigned an instance and encounter other players also assigned to that instance.

  • Diablo 4 could introduce a karma system to track evil PKers and mark them. Also provide good karma to those who kill evil players, and award karma levels with some aesthetic options.

  • Diablo 4 could then use a director AI concept within their random player encounter system to control what types of players you encounter. Low level players wont randomly encounter stronger evil PKers. Players recently PKā€™d by an evil player wont encounter another evil PKer for an amount of time. Evil PKers are less likely to encounter players who typically abstain from PvP.

  • The goal of the director AI would be to control your random player encounters in a way that creates an enjoyable and exciting experience, while not allowing the experience to become unreasonably frustrating.

  • Include a consensual dueling system as well which exists outside of the karma system.

2 Likes

Pvp in arpg never worked and will never work, unless the game is turned into moba. End of story.

5 Likes

I dont mind that PvP exists. But it should always be opt-in.
Then there wouldnt be a need for a ā€˜director AIā€™ either.

Though of course, even with opt-in PvP, the game should still only match people up of similar lvl. A low lvl PvPā€™er should not be matched up against a max lvl PvPā€™er.
A bounty system showing players with many kills could be interesting though. WoW style maybe, showing the player on the map, if they have a long uninterrupted kill-streak.

Other than that, I think PvPvE would be best. Like a bunch of people figthing a World boss, and each other, at the same time. Where you kinda need to work together to kill the boss, but also trying to murder everyone else at the same time, so you can get all the loot from the boss. If you kill each other too soo, nobody gets anything. Kill too late, and you need to share the loot.

Different areas for pvp, never mix up pvers with pvpersā€¦

5 Likes

i dont think world pvp belongs in a diablo style game ( d2Ā“s pvp sucked)

but if they can balance an arena style like they showed for OG D3 that would be wery cool, sadly i dont think we will get that.

3 Likes

Wasnt it confirmed to be Arena?

Sand would be fun, go and annihilate enemy bases or shrines, go figure. Like true destruction. Yeah, players build shrines to boost themselves up and others destroy them. That would be Diablo?

Diablo 2ā€™s dueling scene disagrees. Play Project Diablo 2, youā€™ll see plenty of dueling games, even in hardcore. Low level duels are some of the most fun Iā€™ve ever had in any pvp game. High adrenaline HC dueling? Yes please. Loot duels? Give it to me. In fact, PVP in D2 was so so successful that thereā€™s an outcry to bring it back in Diablo 4. So, thereā€™s clearly something to say there. Some people enjoy the many variables of arpg dueling.

I played it for about a month. 1-2 pvp games in a list of 300 or more at best. Sometimes (Iā€™d even say, most of time) just none. So no, PVP had never been successful in D2. Just some additional fun for tiny minority who are bored with the game.

PS: Logged-in right now. 450+ games: pvp / duels - none. Just plain fact.

thereā€™s an outcry to bring it back in Diablo 4

Tiny minority who cry out too loud. No one needs PVP in Diablo games as a matter of fact.

3 Likes

Youā€™re making such a broad and general claim thatā€™s impossible to confirm. Is there something we can look at to determine itā€™s a tiny minority of players looking forward to PVP? I mean, donā€™t you think Blizzard might have a general idea of how much of the community are interested in PVP? Thereā€™s enough of a PVP community for it to matter. Letā€™s say itā€™s 5-10% of players PVP from time to time, well, thatā€™s a lot of players. Sure, maybe right at this very moment, this morning, you canā€™t find a game. Theyā€™re usually on there and if you donā€™t see one, make one and people will join. I join them. Seems pretty successful to me, especially if itā€™s, in your words, ā€œadditional funā€. I donā€™t believe it needs to be anything more.

You might want to check reddit.

True. PoE has PVP and it flopped so hard the developers gave up on it and move on to PVM contents.

Diablo Immortal has PVP as well. Maybe the D4 developers and Blizzard are using Immortal to test water to see whether PVP will strive or fall in Immortal. Plus, the balance guy aka David Kim who are supposed to handle the D4 PVP was transferred to WoW last few months agoā€¦so I am not sure what kind of state that PVP in D4 will be now without the balance guyā€™s guidance.

1 Like

So long as Diablo 4 doesnā€™t have players wielding large amounts of damage and/or have players naturally dealing less damage to one another; Iā€™m confident that pvp in Diablo 4 will be promising. Immortal has shown an interesting mix of pvpve; I also hope to see a bit more of that in Diablo 4.

So all in all, Iā€™m looking forward to more info regarding pvp for Diablo 4.

1 Like

Iā€™m confident PVP will fail badly in D4 as it did in POE. And here is why. Interesting PVP is a one where not items/levels/builds, but player skill matters. This condition alone ruins everything. There is a variant, though: disable all builds and gear, and make players fight each other ā€œnakedā€. But this again goes against the essense of an ARPG where 2 core things are killing mobs and getting loot (and building your character as a 3rd pillar, maybe). If you are fighting other players, you are wasting your time, because this is not what must be done in the game. It is okay if you are bored, but D4 will offer (as it seems) enough to not be bored. So I really donā€™t see how pvp can possibly succeed in D4 - it is just alien in such type of games.

2 Likes

Weā€™ll see. However as long as Diablo 4 pvp doesnā€™t go Diablo 3 route of brawling, then it has a chance in my opinion.

2 Likes

Even if they will add more than just a battleground, it wonā€™t attract players. An intriguing prospect - ā€œpvp ambush zonesā€ - maybe some shortcuts between locations in the Open World, dangerous zones you might go through (to shorten your way) with a possible PVP ambush. This indeed sounds interesting, but I doubt it can be implemented in an entertaining way (for both player sides). Maybe it will be fun at the very start, but eventually will be exploited badly by PKs, making everyone to avoid them completely (and later PVP in these zones will be just patched out and filled with strong monsters or maybe hostile NPCs instead).

PvPvE though might have some life. Depends on how/where it will be done (if it will).

PvP canā€™t really thrive without good balance. By the very nature of the game finding RNG loot and builds being all over the place, youā€™re not going to have balanced encounters without the players going on to impose specific rules like they frequently did in D2 (and yes, something as simple as low-leveling dueling is a rule). This pretty much guarantees open world PvP will not work, while you have nuances to ganking/griefing that not even some kind of karma/honor system would curb.

The best you can and should hope for is an arena mode where everyone is scaled up to max on their chosen build and gear. There may still be that rock/paper/scissors element of one build/group being better than another, but if you donā€™t remove the RNG element of gear/levels, youā€™re just continuing to ask for trouble.

In the end, Iā€™ll just continue to urge PvP enthusiasts to play games where that is the sole focus, because the moment PvE balance suffers to PvP demands, a line is crossed that never should be.

They donā€™t need to promote pks with ambush zones. For pvp, they could simply have a couple of pvp zones as large as the Blood moore from Diablo 2 act 1; make sure those areas arenā€™t near any key pve spots; so the only folks there would be the folks into pvping and then make sure that player damage towards one another is highly mitigated (especially if their damage is far higher than their own life pools). If pvp is as dead as you think, then those areas would be barren; if not, youā€™ll see players pvping there a great deal of time, especially if they get bored of the pve content, or want to take a break from it. Either way, weā€™ll simply have to wait and see.

As for pvpve, well Immortal already showed a bit of it, however obviously more could added to it. Iā€™m hopeful that Diablo 4 will take the opportunity to do so.

1 Like

Like Iā€™ve said many times, Diablo is first and foremost PvE franchise. This means PvE always comes first, PvP is secondary. If a functional and balanced PvP can be included without affecting PvE in any way, thatā€™s marvellous. If the PvE balance gets affected by the existence of PvP in any way, things have failed miserably.

Thatā€™s something these PvP enthusiasts should really keep in mind.

2 Likes

I canā€™t speak for others; however I myself am certainly not asking for pve balance to be affected by pvp. If anything, I wouldnā€™t even mind if Diablo 4 balanced pve and pvp differently, as in once you step foot in the pvp zones, your skills would work differently as compared to when youā€™re pveing. Of course, this is more work on the team, and as such Iā€™d settle for them making balancing choices purely for pve rather than pvp.

Well reasoned Kirottu. I just hope they do not delay the release of the game because of issues that they may be having with PvP. How many players even care about PvP? Look at all of the effort that put into the revive skill for the D3 Necromancer and most people never even use it ( I do not know of anyone that uses it).

1 Like

I doubt anyone can give you an accurate answer on that.

Also, thatā€™s mostly because of lacking support items. If there were more support items (as in good support items) for revive, then youā€™d have more people using it.