D4: Lack of variety (e.g Crytic axe, twin axe) within gear?

General Discussion
41

You could do that. But if you merely hide the names of the sub-categories, the sub-categories are still there. Seems pointless to not show the names, if you have designed sub-categories in the first place.
And the different appearances already exist as well.
I guess the names are not technically needed for anything, other than making it a bit more user-friendly for new players. But why hide them? What purpose would it serve?

It is not cosmetic if the items have different characteristics…

But that is exactly what people are talking about here! :smiley: If swords have different characteristics based on region etc. they have sub-categories.

If they can all drop with the same rolls, they dont have different characteristics… This honestly is a fairly simple concept. Not sure how else to explain it.
Different sub-categories means that a sabre can not drop with the same characteristics as a long sword.

Yes? That is pretty irrelevant for anything discussed here. WHEN a scythe drops, it should have scythe characteristics.
If a specific Unique is a Scythe, then when that Unique drops, it drops only as a Scythe. Etc.

Yes, you dont have to literally show the names. But again, what would the point be in designing the sub-categories, and then not show the different names. Just to make things more confusing?

Honestly I dont care about how items look. Nor whether you can transmog items or not.
Sub-categories for items is not cosmetic. It changes how each item functions.

From what we have seen, they have already done this?
Different items within same main category, already seem to have different looks.
Otherwise yeah, it would be more work for the artists to add sub-categories. The work already seem to have been done however.



Is it confirmed legendaries have exclusive art?
Since they are essentially rares, imo it would be quite fine if they didn’t. Also saving a bunch of art resources. Much better area to save some money than in the basic item design.

Maybe try to read it again :slight_smile: It is even explained in the title!

42

That’s highly subjective as what is needed in a game is solely decided by the person playing it

1 Like
43

Because a sword is a sword. If they alrdy designed them they would have shown them. Again i dont see why they would have sub-cats. Ppl would use the legendary, unique items anyway? The rest will prolly just be fodder.

It is if the characteristics exist anyway…

So far they called swords with different rolls which seem to be rng based.

Whats the difference between and bardiche and a scythe? Different aspd and different dmg. It doesnt need to have different chara to roll different dmg or aspd. U can make all swords roll +1-10 aspd and +100-200 dmg.

Because name doesnt matter. Its about the stats.

It was a example. Making more sub-cats would mean they want more designs.

Nothing is rly confirmed. However from the look of things it seem we will have 1 hand/2 hand + class exclusive and uniques will have different design. So i do suspect that legendaries will look different even if just some color change.

U might wanna read the whole sentence which u replied to.

44

Again it’s not up to you to decide what is needed just to clarify OP saying something is needed also doesn’t make their stance objective. It’s just their opinion on what makes the game interesting for them or not. Just stop trying to argue about people being right or wrong about that. It’s a matter of taste.

45

They have shown them. In the blog posts.

Which they dont.

All swords seem to have the same inherent affix. And same characteristics.

Indeed. A separation which does not exist in the current game.

The different dmg, attack speed, inherent affixes and similar ARE the different characteristics…

EXACTLY!

Why? They seem to have quite a few designs already.

From the looks of it, within each weapon type, you will also have different designs. Which you seem to ignore.
There are at least 3-4 different staff designs in the pictures above.

46

Im opposing the statement saying its needed because its add variety and build options. As thats not what it does. It does not add any more build options just because there is sub-cats. Thats not a opinion. Im clarifying that the statement isnt true. Just because u dont categorize ppl as men and women it doesnt mean there be less different ppl. Thats just fact.
The same amount of affix and combinations would exist no matter if u categorize gears based on the rolls
on the gear.

And the discussion were about more sub-cats. Which would require them to put in more work for nothing but the appearance of things.

Ok so u saying the different rolls doesnt exist.
A weapon will roll slow, fast, lifesteal no matter if u use sub-cats or not. U want them to be categorized for u to see based on the rolls. Again might be something they work on in the future. But the same weapons would exist they just wouldnt be called something and have their own special design.

So u saying a weapon wont roll with different aspd and dmg? They simply not giving it a new name and design based on the roll. The rolls still exist. They just dont name it and give it their own design.

So if the rolls exist. 2 handed polearms with the fast aspd and with slow. They alrdy do exist. And the name doesnt matter as u say.

Back to ignore anyway.

47

The main reason for a sub-cat is the physical differences of the weapons - you can have a katana with different length, width, curve, sharpness etc… These characteristics then will visually differentiate one weapon from another and will serve for more build options.

You could theoretically make the above characteristics as part of the core itemization (removing the sub-cats), but then you have to do this for each item type (armor, gloves etc) otherwise it will look strange to a newcomer why weapons have these, but other equipment parts doesn’t. Weapon sub-cats sorts that out.

The problem is how you solve inventory switching of weapons since sub-cats might turn out to be very powerful. A way would be to have the sub-cat characteristics on all item types, but that will kind of bloat the itemization too much.

If on the other side the sub-cats aren’t that powerful so people don’t keep weapons in inventory for switching, are these worth it to be implemented?

We can also totally forbid inventory switching of items when not in town (which I like very much), but then players would riot.

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48

Having sub categories allow different base stats like attack speed and damage. It allow weighted or unique stats allow better target crafting , gamble, what to pick up for instance . Maybe a sub 1-handed sword called frame sword has higher chance to roll fire base stats, Ans by default convert xx% of physical damage to fire.

If I want fire converting sword, all I need is pick up gram sword and ignore other swords to pick up.

You can make argument that these can be made Into basic stats for all sword, but then the amount of stats will be bloated ( like PoE now) and you never close to getting your optimal stats.

Hence 99% of rare items in PoE are not pick up, and game become crafting meta.

49

U alrdy have 2 handed and 1 handed. Skill range etc is in the paragon board. Sharpness is like dmg or bleed. Curve is about speed or precision or whatever. Again its just stats.
Its a diablo game. U dont need to call thin sword just because it hits fast. U can but u realize its alot of work for nothing but a visual thing.

Its visuals. Again sure when everything else is done they could improve those things simply for the visuals.

U have occu and uniques.

U expect d4 to be different? Uniques will be BiS it seem like. Normal rare most likely fodder. There is still categories i dont know why u would need more depending on affix.

In other words u want the design to be different based on the stat. Its a visual thing. As i said they might add it later but i doubt its high prio. What im saying is that it wont matter to the build diversity etc as those stats will exist anyway. U dont need to call it fire sword for it to have fire dmg. Obv u could call it fire sword and make it look like a burning sword. But it wouldnt change the stats of it.

50

D4 itemization will be as bad as D3 one, obvious.

51

That’s not entirely true because you don’t actually know all the affixes that are existing already and how obviously weapon characteristics would differ from that not even mentioning armor characteristics
You just “assume” everything is already an affix

52

Why would you switch anything
People usually have one build
And if they are really into their swippy swoppy gameplay they would go to their armory in town where they would also swap their skills

1 Like
53

Yes, but they are kind of dependent on one another, like if you boost range of weapon you lower its speed, if you make it heavier you raise its strength requirement to get the bonus damage etc… And this isn’t present in regular itemization rules. Sub-cats make it easier to comprehend.

Also, sub-cats having different visuals is a tell at PvP which is good design.

We can go the other way - removing sub-cats and letting the player fully customize the weapon as he wants it at Blacksmith (resulting in countless sub-cats), but this may lead to players focusing too much on the same optimal values aka more options, but less variety in the end. With sub-cats you can kind of balance things better which would make the player’s choices harder.

If a weapon switch nets you even 2% damage boost many will AHK for the inventory switch when needed. And that isn’t good gameplay.

Sure, but that costs you time and resources (portals). It’s not instant like the AHK switch.

54

This continues to be false.
The differences CAN exist without the names. But they dont have to.
You need to CREATE the differences first. Then you can name them or not. But the first step is still needed.

The sub-cats are seemingly already there in terms of appearance… Which you just keep ignoring :smiley:

YES!

YES!

But again, the different rolls do not exist (as far as we know, obviously).
People are saying they should exist.

But they don’t

Freaking troll. Why do you make these arguments, where you ignore what people tell you and just keep go on with the same repeated counters.

At least present some kind of “proof” (or just indication) of things being the way you claim they are, if you want to be taken serious.
Since, hey, you might be right. But you definitely are not right just because you keep repeating “it already exists!!”.

Indeed.

Exactly. RNG rolls are not the same.

55

U alrdy got several cats for that. 2 hand,1 hand. Dagger, sword.
Why would u need 7 different daggers?

I know dumb trolls like shadout who got no clue believe its needed. But thats because he got a mental block. If u think about it u dont need 7 different daggers when the random affix makes them different. Its a blood dagger, fire dagger etc. Its just a magic dagger with different rolls.

Tresher and scythe is the same item with different rolls. Just like a tresher and CV. They dont work different or anything.

56

They could work differently. Give them different inherent affixes.
It was already explained why random affixes are not the same. Random is random, anything can be combined. With a handcrafted item, that is not the case.

This is like claiming that D3 set items are just cosmetic and would work the same way with RNG rolls.

57

If I make a table with all stats that could be part of the sub-cat system we will end up with more than 7 when we cross merge the options.

My vision regarding how classes and skills should be done is by constraining certain skills to certain weapon types, so you’ll run out of weapons.

I get you want X weapons instead of Y weapons * Z sub-categories with X = Y * Z, but you won’t have that much X in a game with strong class identity. In a classless system, sure, it will be doable.

58

My hopes for D4 itemization is as low as D3 currently is. I just havent seen anything that points to the contrary.

My biggest fear is that every character that is playing the same build will go for identical things. Legendary items look incredibly similar to D3.

This is how it seems to me. Rare item with life, crit, crit damage, attack speed, cdr, resists will rule. And you simply slap on a legendary affix (glorified canais cube). And everyone going for Whirlwind will choose/have no other options than having the exact same legendary affixes. And the end result is Diablo 3.

59

You just describe all arpgs.

60

ARPGs are a dead genre. Just have fun playing sub-optimally.