weapons have basic stats that can differ
that would be comparable to weapon damage, range, attack speed in diablo
besides that, all of them have about 3 additional affixes
legendaries, uniques and some puples add a special effect that is displayed by a red text
they also went from uniques to legendaries
game changing effects can compensate about 3 normal affixes, as the devs are claiming
that has to be put into consideration for balance
and no, i dont think that a wall of text is making something interesting
But that seems to be the problem. The BiS slots. If you make BiS items then there is no other option. I’d rather have a class amulet similar to the Hellfire Amulet, that has universal, cross spec benefits that would be a must have if there were going to be any BiS . But once you start adding multiple gratuitous items, then it’s is almost as bad as the D3 sets, in being so powerful, you have no choice but to use.
BiS is probably unavoidable.
But items that are BiS should only be so a small subset of builds, so if there are 50 viable sorc builds, you might have 50+ viable BiS Boots for sorcs. Also a yet another reason why +All skills is a trash affix that should not exist. Universal stats are bad.
And dont design items to be guaranteed BiS. It should happen because someone figure out a build that can use the item. Not the other way around.
That is also kinda why I like if some legendaries had randomized stats - though rares + legendary affix might fix that on their own. That means you might have a potential BiS item for a specific subset of builds. But maybe one of these builds want Crit chance on the item, another want Attack speed, a third want +skill etc. depending on the other aspects of the build (such as which ADA power they are going for), even if they are for example all relatively similar Sorc Meteor builds. So even if multiple builds use an item, they want somewhat different versions of it.
My example weapon from BL3 had 8 affixes beyond the 6 base properties. And there are plenty like it.
You are right that the weapon properties are more like damage, range and attack speed (which so far is missing on weapons in D4 which seems crazy). But when it comes to item complexity and how much people can handle, they should still be considered.
If D4 only have 2 basic weapon properties; Dmg (which should be split into physical and spell dmg), and hopefully also speed (unless Blizzard has gone full dumbing down), that leaves 4 less properties than all Borderlands 3 weapons. Which could easily be used for affixes instead.
And then Borderlands 3 doesnt exactly have complicated itemization. D4 could easily aim higher than that.
ofc, diablo can be more complex than borderlands
diablo 2 and even diablo 3 had at least “more” affixes
my point is, the legendary effects are, what makes weapons special in borderlands
not the +splash damage, +fire rate, +weapon damage
the fact that a weapon shoots swords, a weapon shoots a beam that is connected between two slow projectiles, a bullet impacts and explodes 3 times
that can be compared to legendary effects and that is the reason, weapons are used
ofc it always comes down to pure dps/survivability
but these weapons dont need a wall of affixes to be special or good
they are designed that way
Alt fix: Abolish tier/rarity systems as we know it and convert fully to a fleshed out crafting/upgrade/modification process.
Because there comes a point where it’s embarrassing just watching you guys argue how one sword should be able to drop a bazillion different ways that all need to be useful when you could just let the player make one sword however way they need it assuming they’re willing to farm for it.
Yet they do have a wall of affixes. And that wall is what makes them good too.
A BL 3 legendary without the right annointed bonus might be useless. Or without the right dmg type etc.
That would certainly be the wrong way to go imo.
A-RPGs are slot machines basically. If you can craft whatever you want, it becomes silly.
Now that I wouldn’t mind.
So much focus on making different rarities all viable. Even at the cost of other, imo, much more important aspects of itemization. Might as well get rid of those rarities instead. It does sound like rare items will serve a meaningful and unique purpose in D4 however (random stats vs. predesigned), so keep those and legendaries, plus mythics. Magic items could easily be removed - or just phase them out during lvling. Same with white items.
Just like some fire resistance on an item in Diablo doesnt make or break the item. But it still matters. It is part of your overall gear that means you get the resistances you need overall. When this particular item got fire res it means you might not want fire res on some other items. Giving you item to item interaction.
RNG is still maintained in the farming of craft/upgrade components. Things required to add a legendary power to an item wouldn’t be common, assuming the power itself is noteworthy.
Nonetheless, it’s irksome watching you guys trying to justify making white items as good as legendaries, or whatever, when it’s an artificially created distinction with a solution you’re seeking being mutually prohibitive. The literal point is that the white version is supposed to be inferior.
But let’s look at it another way, assuming a singular sword, a +damage affix that offers +10% per level, and 3 difficulty levels.
Affix L1-5: Can be farmed up in the first difficulty, growing progressively more expensive.
Affix L6-10: Must be farmed in the second difficulty, also growing more costly.
Affix L11-15: Farmed in the highest difficulty. Yup, expensive.
Affix L16-20: Requires rare ingredients found throughout the game on all difficulties.
Legendary Power: Requires all L20 affixes and its own material requirements depending on the desired power.
Now, if you’re lucky, maybe you could find a sword with x amount of decently leveled affixes to save some time, but if not, you can always break it down toward your desired goal. There’s simply no need for this white/blue/yellow/gold BS.
yea, thats what every item is about
and not what makes a legendary a legendary
they dont need that to be legendaries, every item has that
just like every item in diablo has affixes (not whites maybe)
and legendaries being legendaries makes legendaries in borderlands BiS most of the time
in diablo, you could balance that out with giving non legendary items more or stronger affixes
Agreed. Any rarity distinctions should be meaningful, otherwise they might as well not be there. And no reason to come up with forced differences just to keep the rarities around.
In any case, farming materials for item crafting sounds like a completely different game type. Making the crafting materials rare doesn’t really change that.
Materials are binary, either you get the material or you dont. Items can land anywhere on the spectrum from useless to perfection, allowing you to “make due” with what you found, allowing you to adjust your build to take advantage of the random stats you got etc. It is essential to the genre imo.
I certainly wouldn’t want that type of crafting in my Diablo-style games.
But people can prefer whatever they want of course.
I haven’t said that. Whether they are legendary or not is quite irrelevant.
But balancing stuff out by making items less interesting seems bad.
Better not to have that balance then.
thats the difference
i dont think that an item is less interesting because it has 3 less lines of text and
i wasnt actually talking to you about this, in the first place:
clueso says, a legendary item needs a wall of text to be interesting and i think a legendary item needs a special, unique thing to it to be interesting
Call me crazy but I think the reason why D3 legendaries aren’t appealing isn’t cause of “lack of affixes” but rather because being too specific (class-specific). And sadly in recent times (from the “GR racing” era more specifically) they got pigeonholed into specifically damage. BUT if they found out ways for those to be useful for other classes (beside it’s intended/main) think those would’ve been just fine honestly
@Clueso, the article you posted is like a 75% disagree material/logic for some reason/s to me. First of all it’s super shallow on human-nature hypotheses, secondly it’s kinda not intuitive in logic and even self-contraversing.
First about magic and rare. D2 did good. You can get an magic amulet with +3 skills and 100 health. Thats pretty good. A rare amulet can get max +2 skills and 60 health… so approximately 60-70% as much of high value affixes. Those might be equally likely to be found. But the rare ultimately has higher potential because its rolling other affixes. You could get all resistance, faster cast and a high strength roll but each one of those makes this item increasingly unlikely.
So between magic and rare,
3 skills, 100 life
2 skills, 60 life, 25 fire resist, 10% faster cast rate, gold find
Ones not better than the other.
Then you can maybe eventually hit the lottery
2 skills, 60 life, 20 all resist, 20 strength, 10% cast rate.
At that point magic doesn’t compete but that is hitting the lottery and that won’t happen for you in every single slot and that is good.
What I was trying to refer to implies the idea of several different BiS items for certain builds. For some and many other builds, the BiS item might be a completely different one. However, if I also had put that explanation into my post as well, then it would have gotten over what was relevant at that point.
So the idea would be to have:
several offensively oriented BiS weapons for various builds, while there also would be several other offensively oriented BiS items for other builds, but ther likely would be overlap between them
same for defensively oriented BiS weapons
same for balanced BiS weapons
same for weapons that will have something big on them, which caters to a certain group of players
I don’t understand, what’s wrong with this particular item ?
Burning wand of alacrity:
+50 to Mana
+40 to Fire Resistance
+3 to Mirror Image
+2 to Meteor
+1 cast range to Fire Skills
Basic attacking opponents increase cast rate and Spell damage by 5%. This effect is reset out of combat for 3 seconds or casting 3 spells in a row
Well, I guess it’s kinda too class specific but here we go with a slight adjustment:
The Scorpion:
+50 to Mana
+40 to Fire Resistance
+lvl3 to Mirror Image (100 charges)
+2 to Meteor
+1 cast range
Basic attacks increase cast rate and Spell damage by 5%. This effect is reset out of combat for 5 seconds or casting 3 spells in a row
Yes, the item is STILL designed to be a Sorc-first item but obviously any melee class can use it. They get a fire-res affix, mirror-image casts, cast range, and a buff that isn’t just a source-first, in fact probably would fit even better to someone like Monk or fast-AS Barb build. Can you imagine when a Barb buffs the thing up to IDK 250% in a fight and makes Upheaval rise big numbers ?, ofc. the downside is can’t cast it 3 times in a row. AND the item doesn’t have a LS, LPH, or LPD element so can’t sustain HP back so kinda have to be careful when using for close combat but it’s still a very cool item IMO
Look at the Exile Runeword from D2 (I mean, it basically is a legendary). It is not just the special stuff that makes this item so great, but also all the other normal stuff on it:
° 15% Chance To Cast Level 5 Life Tap On Striking ° Level 13-16 Defiance Aura When Equipped
° +2 To Offensive Auras (Paladin Only)
° +30% Faster Block Rate
° Freezes Target
° +220-260% Enhanced Defense
° Replenish Life +7
° +5% To Maximum Cold Resist
° +5% To Maximum Fire Resist
° 25% Better Chance Of Getting Magic Items
° Repairs 1 Durability in 4 Seconds
So the first two affixes are kinda unique (although Life Tap also appears on some other uniques), but these things alone are not really what makes that item so awesome on their own. You also have the other affixes (that are more like normal affixes for the most part) that make it really great, interesting an desirable.
No, I did not say that and I would appreciate if you would stop saying so.
I sad SOME endgame BiS legendaries in some slots should be like that, because likely the vast majority of players will think it is awesome to have some of these kind of legendaries. It gives them satisfaction and something exiting to hunt for.
Or at least the majority of legendaries should have +4-7 normal affixes in addition to at least one special affix, because if there will be only legendaries with 2-3 affixes in total, I guarantee you that this will turn off a large, not insignificantly huge amount of the community and it will make them less interested in continuing to hunt for an upgrade if ALL legendaries are just on the same powerlevel as rare and magic items.
This is true.
Itemization in D3 is not only disliked because of the low amount of affixes on items, but also because of too specific special affixes.
In D3 classic, rare items could have up to 6 affixes, and there was no separation between primary and secondary affixes. And iirc some legendaries could roll with even more.
At that time dex, str and int could roll on the same item and things like magic find could take away a spot for other affixes.
It still could have worked with 6 affixes without a separation between primary and secondary. The only affixes that should have been secondaries are non-combat related things like Magic Find, Gold Find, XP Bonus, Pick Up Radius, etc, but not things like bonus resource, single resistance (if they also would roll a bit higher), reduced damage from ranged attacks., chance to stun (a higher amount of course), etc
Rare items would have been perfectly fine with 6 primary affixes and 2 bonus affixes. But instead they let every item roll with mainstat by default and give every weapon +x-y elemental damage as a base roll and the 4/2 system.
Well, you had to elaborate on that if you wanna have a more in depth discussion about it. But you don’t have to if you don’t wanna have the conversation going that way, which would be okay…
