D4 Itemization Blog, post feedback here!

I like the sound of the Angelic / Demonic power, but I’m also skeptical…

Like increasing the power of buffs, could be something solid for an aura build Paladin (If they exist).

Attack and Defense where they should be, great!

I don’t mind the idea of improving the quality of an item to maximise potential stats on the item itself through using crafting materials, and I hope that’s something that’s implemented.

Being able to use a consumable to add legendary powers to rares sounds excellent as well (although also sounds a bit like the Kanai’s cube).

My concerns are the game appears heavily focused on RNG, and not enough on crafting and player control at an increased cost.

Personally I want the following:

  • The ability to improve the quality of items towards their maximum possible stats
  • Having a deep and meaningful role to the professions that reach deep into the end game
  • Having Primary and Secondary stats that can be improved by level and items that have a rich in game effect

That’s the exact opposite of what should be done lol… IF you can simply outperform the Legendary not just by stats but also by affixes that it itself would have - what’s the point of using a Legendary at all ?

a legendary item is not just its legendary power
they also have more affixes than magics and affixes in unique allocations, that rares can not have
you should just watch the itemization videos of mr. llama, he can explain it better
every item should have a benefit and a downside

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TBH prefer the less-affixes but SUPER UNIQUE for legendaries… Crazy bonuses with a downside rather than having a “holy script” right in front of me to read tbh :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

well, it wasnt my idea, to craft legendary affixes into low tier weapons
it was DAVIDS! xD

Noxious I think, he was the first guy to suggest that one… :slight_smile:

damn that guy XD
no, i think it has potential but we really have to be careful, to not completely make legendary items worthless in endgame
maybe make the legendary consumables, have other affixes than the existing legendary items and maybe less powerful

Here’s a post with potential examples (kinda)… Basically rolled the Legendary “primary” affixes (not the one that defines it, but the other stats) to either be super power-shifty or enable them to also include the crafted affix with a lesser power

But yah, maybe something like this might work:

I would like the oposite, if all classes could use all items: they can always limit the class specific affixes by making them only usable by that class. But ofc, some classes would have a better use for some items than others.

I have an idea that mythic items could give a random skill (not all skills, but from a pool of skill that could be used by all classes) instead (or in addition) to the legendary affixes. With this one could have some kind of multi-class, even if they would still rely mostly on their class skills.

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I like this idea.

I think magic items could get one extra socket slot to customize them.

I like how Titan Quest does it. They have blue and purple items: the best purple items are the best but the best blue items are better than many purple items. Also, there are 2 lower tiers, green and olive, that are inferior but can get on pair once you use “runes” to improve them. Once improved this items can be on pair of blue and many purple items.

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yea i mentioned elsewhere, that lower tier items could get more slots, to put runes in them and customize your build much more by urself

Llama’s video sums up my thoughts well also. Yay for this itemization blog.

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Well this feels a bit odd replying to my own post, but I was thinking this morning that If I was a Demon I want to protect myself from Angles so why would the Demon power in the expamle have + Fire Resist, I would think its the wrong way around in both cases.

And now that i think it through yes this great thing I like that I may never be able to be a jack of all trades type of character UNLESS I go out of my way to make more of a little bit of everything support type.

Or maybe if you cross the streams so to speak with Angelic/Demonic runes maybe not so much with the Ancestral types, there could be side effects it may not be a major thing but the runes have their own power struggle and the effects are halved in one and doubled on the other.

And Oh snap what if you a grouping with players of a different standing I am trying to max out Angelic would there be a play off in groups if the power struggle was mixed or over powered to one side. I expect this is to much to look in to unless there was a Roleplay only server or some such.

I also like the idea of capping stats, to put it in simple terms when did we start being able to have more than 100% of an Egg, 100% of that Egg is the whole Egg, and yes you can always buy another Egg but its not the same Egg.
How you get to the 100% Cap is what needs to be worked out or maybe you never can without a few rare Legendary item Affixes.
On the rare Legendary item Affixes Its stated that they will be Late Endgame so they maybe something many of us never see.
I’m ok with that but there should be a level/tier cap on placing them on items I dont think having someone run around PvPing, btw I don’t PvP I just suck at it, with a super powerful low level weapon like the gem of ease. That would be a nightmare to keep track of in a balanced system.

I’m ok with the game being heavily focused on RNG, as it stands in D3 now we can get almost everything needed in the first week of a season, even with the heavily focused RNG i’m not a min/maxer so a week or two later i’m over whatever the season theme is.
So what i’m kind of saying is I don’t want it to be as easy to get everything, and that plays into the whole Ancestral/Angelic/Demonic system I try to look at it this way ok an item drops of whatever level and would be great for a Demonic character but i’m not playing that on this playthrough but I get a great for my next character so I make that new character a Demonic one and base it on that item.

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So I like the whole idea of these stats being limiting factors in the items. But will we have strength? Dex? Vitality? Energy? Attack Rating? Dodge? Block? Hit Recovery? Cast Rate? Resistance? Crushing Blow? Deadly Strike?

If developers want to give us depth, give us plenty of stats, and allow us to have a fair amount of control of them. Simplifying the game in D3 really made it quite boring. I know the trend is to err on the side of making things easy for beginner players, but so, so many of us figured out Diablo 1 and 2 as kids/teenagers, and when information wasn’t widely available. We don’t need our hands held, we need options.

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yea u might pointed out that…they are again solely going for items and leaving behind the character itself
i would probably prefer a real attribute system over the power system

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They probably should have focused on that too in the blog post. Because yeah, other things are important too, but the foundation of a good itemization system is to have a bunch of interesting stats.

The demo actually showed a fair amount of different stats, but it would be nice to hear Blizzards thoughts on it.

One thing I was thinking about, and I guess campaign-haters would not like it, but what if they added more RPG elements to the campaign, where you could choose to solve quests in different ways (relying on Angelic, Demonic or Ancestral power). Branching the story somewhat (limited of course, it is an ARPG after all). Leaning into demonic powers to solve problems throughout the campaign would give additional Demonic power stats (or go hybrid and mix it up from quest to quest), on your character rather than the gear, just like if chosen when lvling up. Making the powers into a bit of an attribute system, with a thematic twist.
Also a bit like how Sacred 2 had a Light and Dark campaign, or Grim Dawn having different factions you can side with.

Only problem imo is how it would work in multiplayer games, if people want to pick different powers. Would need some clever quest design.

i would prefer a classic attribute system with str, dex, vit, energy allocated points per level and just leave the whole demonic angelic stuff behind

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Wow! Awesome! Thanks to David Kim and the whole team. You are currently demonstrating that you are listening to the constructive feedback from your community and you are adapting quickly. The fans feel respected and heard! We are cheap labor and we just want to share our ideas to have the best game possible and then, spend our time and money on it!

I have nothing but positive to say about System Design Part II.

  • Defense on Armor pieces and Attack on Weapon. Perfect !

  • Removing Ancient item was important, thanks !

  • Increase the power of Rare is great. We need that to have a lot of diversity and possible build. Good !

  • New consumable for Legendary Power. I love that ! It add a LOT of new possible build ! If I really need 3 specifics Legendary Power for my build, but they are all on Chestplate… It was impossible with the old system. Now it opens for a lot of new options.

Angelic, Demonic, Ancestral Power.

I like that, seriously. That’s new and fresh but still not too far from what we are used to. I like the fact that you can use all items, but they might not be optimal, but still usable. It’s only in the beginning and they will refine that system. I have some feedback for that.

Affix connected with the different Power should always be the same AND it shouldn’t have too many of them. Something like 3-4 affixes likes All resist, Health Regen and Increase healing for Angelic Power. The amount needed for theses affix should always be the same. So when I start my build, I know how many Angelic Power, Demonic Power and Ancestral Power I will need to optimize my build.

The problem with this system is if Cold resistance always need Angelic Power and for my build I want to have a lot of Ancestral Power and some Demonic Power, it means my Cold resist will always sucks.

So maybe, instead of removing the affix if I don’t have the Pre-requisites, the 3 Powers could instead BUFF theses affix. (Ex: +15% Cold resistance (50 Angelic Power to Optimize)) If I have the 50 Angelic Power, the +15% Cold resist will become +30% Cold resist. Like that, you still need to figure how to optimize and improve your gear, BUT you are not completely penalized for focusing on Ancestral Power. So with my Ancestral Power build, I can still get some Cold resist even if it’s not perfect.

There is also an another option. 2 different affixes. One with no restriction but smaller number and one with Angelic, Demonic and Ancestral Power with bigger number. (Ex: A ring can drop with +3% critical hit chance OR +6% critical hit chance (Require 60 Demonic Power)) So like that, there is always a possibility to get some +X% critical hit chance even if I don’t want to invest in Demonic Power.

Thanks Mr. Kim and all the D4 team ! You made a HUGE barbarian Leap in the right direction. You are proactive and quick to give us feedback and informations. You are not affraid of changing your mind and discuss about constructives feedback of the community. Keep it like that and we will all get such a great game ! Of course, it’s impossible to satisfy 100% of the people. But I really like your Easy to learn, difficult to master. Keep focusing on that ! So casual player will be able to play and have fun AND pro/hardcore gamer will be able to push the game to an another level and will have fun too.

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Using my same structure as A D4 Blog Line-by-Line Evaluation, here is my feedback:

:arrow_up:: Continuing with more frequent communication. Ultimately the game itself when it’s released is what matters, so all these :arrow_up:s and :arrow_down:s are not endorsements or condemnations of the product, but I’m marking this as a positive sign for now.

:pause_button::

First, item affixes should be a meaningful part of character power.

This is fine. It’s nothing groundbreaking, and almost shouldn’t even need to be said. They were a meaningful part of power in D2. They were the defining part in D3. I’m good with them playing a meaningful role as long as they aren’t the defining component of all characters.

:pause_button::

Second, [items] should create interesting choices when deciding which items to equip.

This is actually a good value, but until we see what that really means in practice, I can’t give this :arrow_up:.

:arrow_up::

We’re increasing the total number of affixes on items, including Magic (Blue), Rare (Yellow), and Legendary (Orange). This should raise the overall importance of non-Legendary affixes on your character’s overall level of power.

This is good generally, although I think Magic (Blue) items should stick with 1-2 affixes so that the mix-and-match naming structure of D1, D2 and D3 can be carried forward (e.g. “Shimmering Small Charm of Vita”).

:pause_button::

We are also introducing three new stats:

  • Angelic Power , which increases the duration of all beneficial effects (like self-buffs or healing)
  • Demonic Power , which increases the duration of all negative effects (like debuffs or damage over time)
  • Ancestral Power , which increases the chance of on-hit effects (aka increased proc chance)

I’m cautiously curious on this. On the one hand, I wonder if the components (e.g. buff durations, healing, debuff durations) should be separate affixes or have two versions - separate affixes with higher values and affixes that group them together like the “Powers” described above that have lower values. I am also cautiously curious about what this means in terms of the story that D4 is telling.

:pause_button::

In addition to providing the above-stated benefit, we want these new stats to also act as pre-requisites for empowering certain other affixes.

I’m again cautiously curious here. Until we see more, it’s not clear if this will actually help or harm character customization.

:pause_button::

Crushing Blow

This note is more for others who have reacted to this. Until we actually know what effect this term would have in D4, there’s no real sense reacting to this being mentioned.

:pause_button::

Legendary powers should no longer completely dwarf the strength of your affixes, and the affixes themselves provide more interesting choices because their strength depends on how much of the relevant Powers you’ve accumulated on the rest of your gear.

Again I think whether or not they “provide more interesting choices” may be their aim, but until we see implementation, it’s not clear if it actually fulfills that goal.

:arrow_up::

Based on your feedback, we’ve changed Attack to only be found on weapons, Defense to being only on armor, and we’ve removed both Attack and Defense from jewelry entirely.

This is good. This was a very loud and clear ask from what we saw in the initial demo and communications.

:arrow_up::

Solely picking your items based on Attack and Defense will almost never be the optimal way to play

This is also good, as it suggests we are moving toward a more nuanced itemization that cares more about your specific skill choices and goals than just “increase main stat / DPS.”

:arrow_up::

items are just one part of a character’s overall power

This is around the fourth time they’ve said something like this. Even though I still think this should be a given, we’ll pretend that several :pause_button:s add up to one :arrow_up:.

:pause_button::

Our goal is to spread out power across different sources, including skill ranks, your character’s level, talent trees, items, and the endgame character progression system

Now we’re back to :pause_button: though because you don’t get unlimited :arrow_up:s for rearticulating the same point repeatedly.

:arrow_up::

We are going to remove Ancient Legendaries from the game in their current form entirely.

Again, this was loud and clear feedback, and they’ve listened.

:pause_button::

[The new consumable being planned] would have one random Legendary affix on it, drops only in the late endgame, and can be used to apply that affix to any non-Legendary item.

I am giving this a :pause_button: because they aren’t clear yet if Legendary items will function more like D2 (fixed affixes) or D3 (random affixes). If it’s the latter, this is still just power creep, like Ancients. If it’s the former (like D2), then a rare won’t always be superior, but there will be several cases where it could be, which is the ideal. I.e. if rares and legendaries share the same random affix pool and number of random affixes, it will always be superior in the endgame to have gear that is all rares with the legendary powers you want over legendaries that have their powers restricted to specific slots (e.g. torso). I strongly believe legendaries should not be random affix sticks and that there should be cases where the unique combination of affixes on legendaries should be desirable in some cases (but not strictly superior in all cases).

:arrow_up:: 6
:arrow_down:: 0
:pause_button:: 8

Outlook: “I shall take your position into consideration.” There’s still a lot here that is just too early to evaluate. That said, there are some signs of improvement on areas that were plainly lacking before, so that’s good. From my last review, most of the large issues went beyond itemization, so it will be interesting in the next blog if those are addressed.

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They are just making the same Diablo 3 stat system by having you build attack and defense on items in the basic way. Separating them now is a little different, and better. Perhaps it really is just the semantics of it. Calling it attack instead of damage and defense instead of armor may be the thing that’s throwing me off.

What you just described, with magical barbs and physical sorcs is something I support and would like to have available. That’s why Path of Exile is good, because you can make a bow barbarian, a sword dex character, and a physical damage caster from either direction, barb or witch. Scion is a whole different ball game.

I guess the issue perhaps in comparing it to something like Path of Exile is that they don’t actually want to do that full freedom thing. They want specific classes to have specific skill trees (not a bad thing) and that would automatically close them off from other things like having a magical barb or a sword sorc. This would already pigeonhole them into specific builds based on whatever they decide goes on the specific class’s skill tree. This is part of my issue, I see DotA and Path of Exile and then I have to look at Diablo 3 and now Diablo 4 and it doesn’t seem like they paid attention to any of the other games that have made real evolution in the genre over the past decade.

I’m not even necessarily for splitting attack a certain way like phys/mag dmg, I just want to see them do something more than attack/defense, which I’m seeing is almost exactly like Diablo 3. Main stat gives damage (attack) and armor or resist (defense) at the same time, so focus on building main stat. Splitting them per your items is good, but my issue is that at first glance, in general, Diablo 4 seems too simple. I realize it’s still early in development, but this kind of starting point makes me feel iffy about the whole process. I’ll likely support what they put out, but like I said, DotA even has a better stat system than the grandfather of ARPGs. They need to do better, and I know they can.

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