[D4 Feedback] Solving the Item Tier Problem

General Discussion
1

From the Q3 update:
“We’ve also had very mixed team feedback regarding core itemization. We’re currently looking at how to best differentiate our various item qualities. For example, should Magic quality items have higher affix stats than Rare items?”

There are 2 points that need to be addressed regarding this issue:

1. Would players enjoy having their endgame characters be wielding Magic items over Legendary items?

I doubt it. The fantasy is to wield all high-tier items by end game. Missing out on max number of affixes and powers will feel bad. But then this leads to the next point:

2. Then how do you make lower tier items meaningful enough that players have to think twice before trashing it?

Raising the affix value on low tier items is a great start, but it has no meaning the way it is now because it conflicts with the 1st point. But what if you can upgrade the lower tier item into a higher tier item, keeping the old affix values while rolling an additional random affix(es)? Depending on RNG, it could make the item trash or a keeper.

This way, an upgraded legendary item could be better than a dropped legendary item. It requires players to actually play the game to get the real best gears, and not just be lucky.

From the previous updates, we know that devs are considering a mechanic where you can extract the legendary affix from an item and give it to a Rare item to make that a Legendary.

So this is how it should be balanced:

  • Just upgrading a dropped Rare to a Leg should have the potential to be better than a dropped Leg.
  • Upgrading a dropped Magic to Rare then to Leg should have the potential to be even better, but should be much harder to do than just upgrading a dropped Rare to a Leg.
  • Upgrading a dropped Normal to Magic to Rare to Leg should have the potential to be the greatest, but should be the hardest to do.

To accomplish this, lower tier items should be able to roll higher affix values, yes, but ALSO lower affix values. Basically, lower tiers should have wider value range.

For example:
Legendary weapon damage roll range = 80~100 (with 7 affixes)
Rare weapon damage roll range ====== 70~110 (with 5~6 affixes)
Magic weapon damage roll range ===== 60~120 (with 3~4 affixes)
Normal weapon damage roll range ==== 50~130 (with 0 affixes)

Why is the wider range necessary? Because lower tiers have less number of affixes therefore less RNG. The RNG needs to come from the value range instead. This way, getting the perfect value Normal item then upgrading it all the way to a Legendary item with all the extra affixes rolled to precise perfection would be extremely difficult and costly to do. Each tier items will maintain some level of value even at endgame.

Lastly, I don’t think this upgrade mechanic should extend to the Mythic items. After all, those items are supposed to be mythical. But I really hope that the Mythic items are not absolutely necessary to make an endgame build.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think.
Looking forward to the Q4 update!

4 Likes
2

They should just remove item tier.

The game should just have 2 tier of items; white item without a legendary power and white Item with legendary power.

I never understand why the game needs to have item tier such as white, blue, yellow, orange, normal, epic, legendary, ancient, ethereal and so on. It is clutter mess.

1 Like
3

I want to see a nice crafting/augmentation system.

MXL had done something really nice, and had an element of RNG to it so it wasn’t as easy to just craft the perfect item and then call it quits on the grind.

Add a bunch of reagents and recipes that potentially augment a basic item with more power. Stats or enchantments or bonus skills.

2 Likes
4

Because of the new players for who is easier to orient between less item properties.

That’s not a problem per se. There isn’t any need the player to be awarded with godly items (be it complete or such to be crafted) in the very early game (when one finds the lower tiers mostly). Crafting is usually an activity created for when the player can handle the itemization good enough. And that’s not in the early game. In the late game they can just lower the amount of lower tier items that drop.

What you want is giving a Ferrari to a driver that get his license today. Yes, it could be fun in particular cases, but in most it would be a mistake. There’s no need for such reward so early.

1 Like
5

Rares and legendaries should have their different purposes:

  • Legendaries - items with fixed stats, and a legendary affix
  • Rares - Random affixes

With some balanced way to get random affixes on your legendaries if you want to.

Magic items however? Honestly, just phase them out in endgame. Seems like a waste to try and shoehorn them into being viable. They are rares with fewer affixes. There is no need to have them outside of early game where they serve a purpose of slowly adding more powerful gear.

6

I don’t know how Blizzard will deal with those tiers, but in my head their concepts are clear.

Set - Defines one specific mechanic ( x,y,z spells are modified and if you use them this way, you’ll deal more damage )

Legendary - Add mechanic ( create some combo, add or modify some spells, etc ).

Rare - Bump 2 or 3 stats

Magic - Heavily bump 1 stat

Normal - Placeholder to deal with difficulty jumps or make gold

1 Like
7

My thoughts on item tiers:

  1. There should be gear slots oriented to damage / utility affixes, like Diablo 3 already has (amulets and weapons for example).

  2. Legendary effects that improve the damage output of your skills should only be on those slots, where they’ll compete with magical / rare items.

  3. Magical items should have a low number of affixes, but insanely boosted power of those affixes. Imagine magical amulets having 30% crit chance, or 425% crit damage, or 45% elemental damage. You only get 2 affixes, but what you get are exceptionally potent and should not be ignored.

  4. Rare items, like now, have the normal amount of affixes and can all roll randomly for your desired combination.

  5. The legendary affix takes an affix slot, and the legendary rolls with one fixed affix that’s a bit less damage oriented (and can’t be rerolled). This is the tradeoff between wanting to modify your build with an item, vs sticking with the base skill and trying to maximize that mathematically.

  6. Normal gear should be the only gear you can craft with. Whether it’s something like runes, or just using a normal item as the base in crafting recipes, I think the crafting system should be good, and players should want to find normal items as the things they get to customize in the end game (with a lot of work and materials).

8

maybe you should just get away from your “fantasy” to only wear orange :smiley:

9

I doubt it. The fantasy is to wield all high-tier items by end game. Missing out on max number of affixes and powers will feel bad.

Not in my book. I love super rare super cool blue items in D2.

Raising the affix value on low tier items is a great start, but it has no meaning the way it is now because it conflicts with the 1st point.

There is no conflict, if rolled numbers are great. This alone is the reason to keep it. Or, if this is not enought, they can add the possibility for “impossible” affix to appear, from another kind of item. For example, only gloves can have +AttackSpeed. However, a blue belt also have a rare chance to have this affix. So if you really need more attack speed, you can sacrifice your cool unique/legendary belt for one with +IAS.

The only problem is how to mark this item among 99% bad blues. Loot filter is one possible solution, but I prefer more rare drop, like in D2, and a blue with great rolls (no matter of what affix) should be properly marked on the ground. In D3 they made circular icons, which I find very convenient. In D4 item with a good roll can be marked with a double circle, for example, so you bother to pick it up and take a look.

1 Like
10

I absolutely disagree with this. Getting all legendary items makes them feel less legendary.

The way I’d do it is like this. During the early parts of the game, magic and rare items will have similar affix values. Finding a rare at this stage should feel good. As you progress and you’ve started seeing more rare items, the affix values on magic items will start to outpace the affix value on rare items. Something like +3 to skill for magic instead of +2 to skill for rares. Kinda like what you said at one point, the blue would have a larger range, but the floor would be the same, only the higher value is higher. This balances the fact that magic items would still be a more frequent drop, and you just have to get two RNG rolls instead of up to 6.

The goal I think should be to have magic items be viable budget items at max level. They should be a little bit weaker than a rare item with the same two affixes + some other useful stuff, but they should be easier to find. So its a stepping stone, but not necessarily… you might need the 40 fire resistance where 30 won’t do… or extra skill bonus but can’t get crit chance on there.

As for upgrading items, I think that should be a VERY rare thing to do. I do like the idea of crafting items using white items as the base but I think it should be unique items like in D2, they had 4 “sets” for each item slot that you could craft and each had a theme to it. They should expand on a system like that. Crafted should be its own item tier.

1 Like
11

Sure, but they were only super cool via crafting when you could add sockets. It was easier to roll a Cruel Colossus Blade of Quickness with just the two affixes than try an roll a perfect rare with 4-5. Then you added the runes/jewels of you choice.

TL;DR late game blues were cool, but only because crafting made them viable.

Seeing a few folks say magic/white etc should be phased out or at least removed from end-game/late-game; one reason to keep them in is for the immersion. If every item you dropped was a rare/legendary it would feel weird to the average consumer*

Whereas for the addicts like us who creep the forums it would seem normal because min-maxing etc - even then there’s the psychological aspect of having a legendary suddenly drop after seeing nothing but a sea of blues for some time.

*person who buys and plays them game for 2 weeks and then moves on, which is roughly 80% of initial sales usually.

12

No, it won’t.

Late game should be 98% rares, 1.89% common/magic, 0.1% legendary and 0.01% mythic. In the very early game drop rates of common/magic and rares should be inverted. The more the player approaches the late game, the more the percentages should change. And there’s nothing confusing here for the average customer (or anyone else).

13

Late game should be 98% rares

Don’t call them rares then ) Call them “ordinary items”. Whites and blues are rare in this case )

Anyway, only D2 made it right. D3 and PoE failed badly. Rares are rare even in the lategame. Not to speak about uniques.

2 Likes
14

See what Azimuth said.

It will feel weird because they’re literally not rare any more. Also see the rest of my post regarding immersion.

Correct. I didn’t say they shouldn’t?

I didn’t say it would be confusing? I said WEIRD, again see immersion.

You are not the average consumer and are failing to take a step back to see the broader picture beyond what you want the game to be. That’s one of the many reasons these forums are not the sole source of feedback; we’re the more hardcore players that don’t (usually) think of the broader audience who will buy and play the game for a few weeks to enjoy the campaign and then move onto the next game.

15

Okay. If it bugs you, here it is:
Late game should be 98% yellow, 1.89% white/blue, 0.1% brown and 0.01% orange.

Nothing weird. It’s weird you think it will.

It will be weird if in first 10 minutes the player receives 100 whites, then from 11 minute he receives 100 yellows. But I haven’t said that will be the case. What I said is the percentages slowly increase. See what you quoted.

16

You keep arguing points I never made??? Who said anything about it suddenly going from all whites to all yellows? I literally agreed that the percentages should change as you approach end-game.

I said whites/magic should not be removed from end late game because it would break immersion (and not make sense) that every item that drops is a “rare” and thus not rare. It’ll also lessen the dopamine rush of rares/legendaries/mythics dropping in the first place.

Trash is necessary to make the treasure feel like treasure.

1 Like
17

We call them rare. They are just yellow items actually.

You’ll just have trashy yellows and not trashy yellows. No problems here.

18

Yes, for you a hardcore ARPG player.

It’s immersion breaking for–

You know what bud, forget it. I can see your intent is to double down regardless of logical counters and you’d rather use your feelings as facts. Have a good’n, dude. :wave:

19

Your idea is better than d3, but no essential differences. It looks like d2.

Item mechanic is the core of Diablo like games, and it really needs big change otherwise just boring.

Some of my thoughts.
1.The tier of item only determines the starting point — the lower tier the less affixes, and I agree a slightly wider range for lower tier is necessary.
2.Every item can grow additional affixes as long as you fight long enough(or make accomplishments), and every affix is still random. The top tier is legendary, no growth afterwards. It’s extremely difficult to grow from normal to legendary. Once you make it this item will MARK YOUR NAME and BLZ WIIL ADD IT TO THE DROP LIST with a maximum number of drops(eg. 10,000) . This is real “legendary” item, and they are tradable. Some time later(eg. 1 year) BLZ can re-open some of these items(based on topX transaction amount in the trade market), so another 1000 drops come and no doubt it could have one more affix — this is Epic item, real ”epic”.
Note. You may worry this will encourage players “create” too many trash items marked their names. Actually it totally depends on how difficult to make it. We can set the name can only be marked after certain accomplishment which is not only difficult but also can test the power of this item. And we can also set a success rate of marking the name— the lower starting point the higher success rate.
3.Legendary items can have unique effect. For self-grown items you can get a random effect in the last affix roll. Rather than direct transmission from another legendary item I prefer random(to make it harder).

So the balances are:
Lower tier = worse starting point = higher potential = more efforts = more honor
Higher tier = better starting point = lower potential = less efforts = less honor

1 Like
20

Variety (interest) and progression (achievement).
But really, it’s because item-grinding games like these are never-ending hamster wheels and they need a lot of filler. lol

Not really. The values will reflect the player level, and they’re not rewards until they’re fully upgraded. And they could just make upgrading items available only at max level of 50, and make them cost fair amount of resources that first needs to be farmed. Also the upgrading process could turn the item into complete trash by rolling an unwanted affix.

but I wanna be an orange.

Interesting… I feel like majority of players would want to have an interesting legendary affix for each slot by the time they’re 2000+ hours in and pushing endgame, no? Plus, D4 is adding a Mythic item which can only be equipped 1 at a time, so that should feel pretty special.

Maybe I’ve been playing D3 too much to see it any other way.