I can appreciate that nuance, but certainly you must want an endgame that has multiple systems to interact with. In a Diablo game the end goal is always the same - get great loot and complete your build (though I’d love to see the endgame be some super long dungeon (with an end) that you really have to struggle to complete to test your perfect builds against), but how you go about that could/should vary. The interesting design question here is do you have specific items only available through specific activities like RoRG in D3 from only bounties that way opting out of a particular endgame activity has its drawbacks. I’m sympathetic to those who just want to item hunt with whatever build they like and I’m also sympathetic to those who want to push leaderboards and crave competition in gaming. I’m hoping PVP scratches the itch for those players though and we don’t have to experience the GR system again. In concept the keyed system is much better because it can change formats from dungeon to dungeon challenging and testing some builds more than other, so that there is no single best build for doing that content.
Well, that was my point, as long as the builds are well balanced, as in performing very similar, it is okay that one is technically better. They will exactly be considered equals anyway.
We see that in PoE as well. Grim Dawn too. You are right we dont see it in D3. But that is on D3. Due to having 100000000% dmg multiplications, even what could have been small differences are blown out of proportion.
Once the developers settle on an itemization system I’d love to see them randomly generate say 1000 items using that system. Have everyone on the team pick a build in the game they are interested in playing and then rate each item on a scale of 1-5. Create distributions for scores of each item and then distributions for scores of each build. That should generate a ton of conversation among the team about what has value and doesn’t. Then they should take this and fine tune how likely certain affixes are to appear. They may do this already and I don’t know, but if they did this I think a couple of things would come from it:
- Not every affix should have the same likelihood of rolling since some are always going to be on aggregate much more highly valued than others on both a macro and micro scale.
- Affix tiers are very important. Affix ranges on lvl 20 items should not be the same as affix ranges on lvl 40 items and should not be the same as affix ranges on endgame activity or endgame crafted items. Those top tier rolls should be rare, but the delta should increase over time and there should be a stopping point.
- If the only items that are liked are offensively stat-ted items then make sure the game is hard enough that defensively stat-ted items are more liked. Continue to do difficulty balancing passes and repeat this exercise until there is a much closer to 50-50 split between the two.
I’d image affix tiers like this:
- Tier 1 Affixes - drop from lvl 1+ monsters
- Tier 2 Affixes -drop from lvl 10+ monsters
- Tier 3 Affixes -drop from lvl 20+ monsters
- Tier 4 Affixes -drop from lvl 30+ monsters
- Tier 5 Affixes -drop from lvl 40 monsters.
- Tier 6 Affixes -drop from lvl 40+ monsters (40+ monsters are act bosses, world bosses and keystone dungeon bosses for keystone levels 1-5)
- Tier 7 Affixes - drop from lvl 40++ monsters (40++ monsters are uber act bosses, keystone dungeon bosses for keystone levels 6-10).
Just an example, but if a given item drops and rolls an affix at endgame then there should be a 12% chance is a tier 1, 20% chance it is tier 2, 20% chance it is tier 3, 24% chance it is tier 4, 12% chance it is tier 5, 8% chance it is tier 6, and 4% chance it is tier 7. I think this sort of affix rarity is super interesting for determining how base affixes roll that way an item that rolls all tier 4 affixes at level 40 could last a while into endgame until you find one with all tier 5’s or a mix of all tier 4 and tier 5’s.
Using just one stat as an example:
Tier 1 - +10-20 life
Tier 2 - +15-30 life
Tier 3 - +25-45 life
Tier 4 - +40-65 life
Tier 5 - +60-90 life
Tier 6 - +85-120 life
Tier 7 - +115-150 life
Of course I do. My point is, people play plenty of builds and build diversity is there, many here choose to ignore it focusing only on what’s viable for GR150 clearing nearly 200 builds that, like clockwork, people complain about how stupid a build is because it doesn’t conform to the norm and they struggle with a GR 45 on a non conventional build.
Of course I want more than one thing to do. But even then there will be people like me who aren’t interested in doing things as fast or as efficient as possible. Example, keyed dungeons. I’ll guarantee you most will try to clear them as fast as possible doing the very minimum needed to hit all dungeon quests/goals. I’ll probably do a nice, well paced full clear looking for chests and rares each time. So just from that perspective, my WW Barb will be vastly different than the ones going for break neck speed.
Only if Blizzard fails to make it more (or at least equally) rewarding to do thorough clears.
Loot, mats, and currency are enough for me. Even then, I’ve been around enough and speed is what most want to do regardless of reward.
Yes.
And add severe death penalties/survival bonuses to make defensive stats more useful.
So, I dont know exactly how you envision this, but one thing I really hope we wont see in D4, is getting a, to use your example above, +10 life affix in a lvl 40 area. That is just pointless.
It is like D3s stupidly large affix ranges; like 250-500 str. Getting the 250 roll is never going to feel interesting.
Imo pretty much get rid of affix ranges (not tiers, a lvl 1 items should have lower affixes than a lvl 40 item obviously). As in, keep them small. like 140-150 life, or 35-40 str.
Item RNG should come from which affixes the item has, since that can always be potentially useful for some build (if itemization is good anyway). A low roll never is.
Then have hundreds of affixes of course, so there are still plenty of combinations and the ones you want the most remains rare.
They only do speed because it is more efficient. The moment it wasn’t, they would do something else.
Something which servere death penalties/survival bonuses would also help with. As squishy speed running character might not be as efficient, if they die from time to time. One change cant magically fix this. But lots of changes working together can. Rewarding exploration, penalizing death, making it harder to respec etc.
And, simply by making key dungeons rarer. When you can just spam endless amounts of key dungeons, speed is rewarded more. If each key is somewhat rarer, you are more encouraged to get everything each has to offer.
Which doesn’t mean they have to be ridiculously rare or anything. You should be able to do key dungeons very often. But using all of the above mechanisms “a bit” makes a difference together.
I’m right there with you on playing at your own pace and so long as they don’t design endgame content that disincentivizes you from doing that then that will be great! I’m curious what aspects of itemization matter most for you since you don’t feel the need to push the envelope too much.
Since I consider myself somewhat between that point of view and the hardcore crowd, for me it’s the ability to plan a build and see it through regardless of how well it actually performs that I love and to see how far I can push it. So I want itemization to be able to have a lot of knobs to turn to help me realize my ideas and enough customization to make it feel like my own creation.
With keyed dungeons having quests associated with them, I’d love to see clear all the enemies (which they shown), but also uncover all the map, or find a certain secret on the map, etc… I’d also like to see potions disabled, limit 1 town portal, movement speed penalties also, that way a variety of builds and playstyles feel validated and/or challenged in that content.
I think we disagree on this because from a math point of view if the delta from low to high is too small and the higher tier affixes drop with anything above a 5% chance then you will regularly see 90% of best possible items drop, unless the high end of a roll is less likely (this is true on some affixes in D2). Of course if they don’t plan on dropping a ton of loot then they can make the loot the do drop have slightly higher chances to be good. It’s a balance thing and it feels different to me in different games based on the challenge of the game.
Very well said.
If there are hundreds of affixes you wont see the exact affixes you prefer being together on the same item very often.
Duh. It’s a looter ARPG.
Imagine a Diablo game without items, or the bare minimum. Here, have a white starter set of items & go complete endgame.
Not really. Whether in D2 or D3, players will find a way to optimize class and build for a specific activity.
Just take D3 for an example here.
People will go for the best and fastest build for bounty.
People will go for the best and fastest build for rift run.
People will go for the best and fastest build for the GR exp run.
People will go for the best and strongest build for solo GR push.
People will go for the best team combination and build for a 4-man GR push.
People will go for the best skill setup for pushing specific Class Set Leaderboard.
Since D4 has a world boss, you can sure you will see people using the best boss killer for that content as well. Of course, there will be some people who don’t care about these and will play anything as long it is fun for them but most players certainly will not share the same sentimental as them.
The math guy will come out with the best and possible desired soft cap number in that scenario. For example, getting 40% Critical Chance is the best for overall performance, and going further is just not worth either due to diminishing return or it yields too little gain by sacrificing too many gear slot, you can see everyone will be making sure their character has 40% CC.
That is why I said, it heavily depends on build. Some classes and builds no matter need X stat to function well and I don’t think you can take that away.
In D3 respeccing takes all of 10 seconds and you don’t have to commit to skills. In D4 you’d have to respec each time you wanted to play something different and they’ve already said they are going to have a significant respec cost. You won’t be able to do what you are saying here in D4 if their current system holds.
I’m fine with that, just so long as that X stat or quad of stats 1-2-3-4 are not the same for every class for every build. We shouldn’t all be looking for the exact same rolls at endgame.
Yeah, but you shouldn’t underestimate players’ determination. For D4, people will just go old school method like D2 by creating multiple class (boss killer, farmer, support) that focusing on specific tasks.
Before D3 get an armory feature, I actually have 2 set of the same class readied. One for bounty and one for GR push because it is annoying to switch legendary gems and gear every time I want to do GR or bounty, so I just make 2 copy of characters for that. Faster and efficient.
You are right there will be people that do that for sure.
I don’t wanna derail but he outright blocked me as much as you perhaps Eloba too. Quoting him won’t make him contribute to any discussion.
As for why I got blocked I said special algorithm for map generator limits the randomization of Greater Rifts and that you can farm anywhere in Diablo 2 to mitigate the level gap for your targeted loot, instead of farming alvl85 for an ilvl17 set/unique item; which he never accepted. Implied I hate Diablo 3 because I dared to criticize its on purpose randomization, which I didn’t, and said I don’t know much about Diablo 2; which may be truth afterall because it’s been years since I played it.
For long days he replied to me hoping I’d step back like my opinion matters to everyone. All the while, our Blizzard clients use most likely a Mersenne Twister, which is a pseudo-random number generator to communicate with the server.
To say the least I don’t think he’s a troll, but I think he’s biased at some points. I read his posts, he makes sense and I can see why he picked D3 as a staple for ARPG standards as well. You can’t hope to rival PoE with a copycat production of Diablo 2, Sacred or NoX from 90s, but you can take these apart to give them a new light.
Set Item Discussion
The only thing we haven’t talked about in this thread so far are set items. Most of the feedback I’ve seen on set items is the D3 direction of set items is a no-go due to lack of build diversity. If set items are best in slot then you lock down so many item slots, which is a much bigger problem for me. In a loot hunting game to lock down so many item slots is designing against the point of the game. The D4 developers have acknowledged these limitations with sets and their current direction is to still make sets, but have them not be best in slot - more or less endgame starter gear.
First, let’s talk about what we like about sets.
What do we like about sets?
- Sets give a cohesive character look.
- Sets allow players to build progressively toward unlocking bonus power outside the item affix system.
- Completionism. Completing a set feels good. It’s something you hunt for and piece together.
- Lore feel. There is a definite lore angle to some sets that appeals to players that love the lore of the game world.
Can we design a system that accomplishes this without the drawback of item sets as we’ve discussed earlier. I think we can and I think it could be the endgame crafting focus of D4. I’m assuming we are getting some version of the blacksmith, jeweler, and mystic artisans back. I’m proposing a 4th artisan - essentially D4s version of Deckard Cain - an item artificer. Artificer’s have the ability to bring out latent powers in items and identify items of historical and magical worth. Throughout the game the player will be able to loot relics. Relics are historical artifacts that are encrusted in dirt and impossible for the player to identify. The player brings relics to the artificer to identify. Some of the results from identifying a relic are lore items - similar to WoW archaeology that help with the lore and world building of Sanctuary. These items can be collected or displayed in player housing or sold and traded.
Some relics though thrum with ancient power and the artificer can steal that power by disenchanting it. The materials gained from disenchanting relics can be used to allow the artificer to attempt to draw out hidden powers in your items - call it unveiling. The higher level the item level of the item being unveiled the more expensive the unveiling will be. Sometimes the hidden power drawn out will be a new affix which is a great result. Sometimes the hidden power drawn out will be drawn out at the cost of other affixes on the item. Sometimes the hidden power drawn out will corrupt the item and change it in very unpredictable ways. But sometimes, the hidden power drawn out will be a set power. Draw out all the set powers for a given set and gain the bonus of that set.
This approach to sets gives players the ability to turn any group of items into set items by unveiling their hidden set potential. You take a moderate amount of risk to do this, but I think endgame crafting should put your items at risk in some way for the potential reward involved. To be able to unveil a given set players must find recipes for the sets as drops and have the artificer learn them. This doesn’t mean you can target those sets specifically, but it adds those sets to the artificer’s possible unveiling list. The artificer starts with a few basic sets that are known to him, but over time you can collect a whole host of item set bonuses to try and find.
The best thing about this approach to sets is that you don’t lock the player into certain items. You can have set bonuses occur on any item in the game if unveiled properly. When the player unlocks a full set bonus on their gear they earn the corresponding transmog / aura / player character effect to go with it. This transmog can then be equipped as normal to show off the set you completed.
I believe this way of approaching sets side steps all the typical ills of set items while accentuating why we like set items in the first place. It also introduces a new artisan that can help add to the lore of the world. In addition to item appraisal, item identifying, and unveiling the artificer can imbue items. This would give rare white bases a purpose in the game through the imbue system from D2. Of course this will cost materials and so the artificer is a key cog in the endgame crafting wheel of D4.
Let me know what you think of this system.
Thanks for interference.
More like Sets are for controllable environment for player progress. The all arounder 13 item slots is hard to tailor different builds for when main stat is the concern and people wanted shiny things to worth their salt. I doubt it gonna repeat in Diablo 4, because there are less equipment slots and less ground for power growth currently.
There are godlike Set pieces in D2 that can be incorporated to any willing build. It’s all about these pieces allowing some unique affix rolls of sorts.
Sounds cool. I’ve been thinking about a system where you bring transmogrify items to some artisan to reveal their true power in D3. I say, why not this can’t apply for Set items? Maybe a slight restriction about other Set items equipped can make this a valid system.
If artificer revealed an immeasurable power to increase your defense or damage, and can embed this into your Set gloves, then the other Set pieces you supposed to be limited to specific slots to deny you from full Set bonus. A small loot hunt for power won’t hurt I believe and result wise it could be similar to present day Set items in D3.
Item that carries that must be very specific in that case. And still I’d argue that it’d be any balanced if you can carry the entire thing without any drawbacks.
Yes, but even in that case you lock down those item slots, i.e. you can’t choose whatever item you want to fill them - you have to choose the set item if you want the set power. This system doesn’t require you to sacrifice the item you put in a slot to have the bonus for that slot for the purposes of forming a set.
What I’m imagining here is the recipes for the sets that the artificer learns will serve the purpose of telling the player which item slots can reveal the set power they are wanting to find. My only concern with this system is players might want to have lots of stashed items with different set bonus powers on them to mix and match, but I really don’t mind this and is part of the endgame item hunt collecting aspect of Diablo games I enjoy the most.
That’s optional. The best example here is Orphan’s Call; Guillaume’s Face is an overpowered helm and while other pieces are useful you don’t need to wear any other set item if you can opt in for better options.
I think we’re thinking of a similar system but I can’t be sure unless I have read some details. The system I imagine is creating small branch in Set bonuses after the process but denying you from the standard full Set bonus if you were to keep it.
Let’s say there’s a Set, named Awesome with a total of 5 pieces, and we have the Awesome Set glove. When artificer enchants that Set glove, it creates another power bonus branching away from standard Set bonus by equipping same Set pieces. As a drawback, however, glove description states that you should only get to keep Set Helm and Set Boots giving you Awesome Set 3-piece bonus but wearing any other Set piece nullifies the bonus you get from Set glove after the process. It doesn’t deny you completely, but it gives you a branch by locking your power to a degree.
So they shall work as our Runes now in D3 or like the Legendarys in Immortal ? 
Norm. you just need your Stealth with Tal Eth … and maybe later on 1-2 as Sword or Shild Spirit and maybe an Ancient Pledge
Havn´t really seen to much Soso´s who cared about anything, till they where really deep into the farming Grind, with more than 1k Hours under theyr Belt.
Pretty much this !
Youtube is your Frind.
Look up the most successfull Build to play and can take on all the Contend and doesn´t have to be too picky with Immunitys or Hunting Grounds.
And go.
Players always will find faster and clever ways to overcome everything you set in front of them.
Pleasing your Players
Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forgot they asked for it to begin with.
Out of the " Law´s of Online World Design " - by Raph Koster