i am completely fine with fun builds not being meta
i just wanna play an RPG and do what i want my character to do
Haha. Playing RPG means playing the role youâve chosen. If you diverge from that role, you have to be punished.
Choosing a role of say low physical strength character and going through the adventure wielding a heavy weapon is breaking that role.
Thatâs why character creation in cRPGs is so advanced since you define your character at that moment and you have to follow the role youâve chosen.
The above related to Diablo would mean that a player choosing a particular class should not be able to excel in the already defined weakness of the class no matter what items he stacks. Thatâs good RPG with strong class identity.
Playing an âintelligent barbâ, a shout barb, a melee sorceress, a melee ranger, a tank necromancer etc. should not go against the identity of the class, and thus, it can, and should also be profitable.
Barbs in D4 can already summon minions, so unless that changes, it seems like it is happening.
At least we agree on that.
It does.
But class != role.
Yes. But again, a role of low physical strength comes from your build. Not your class.
Nothing says a wizard cant also be a bodybuilder.
If your wizard is a body builder, it should of course have other weaknesses. Since you do not have unlimited points to get everything.
Very true. And yet they allow for intelligent barbs and melee wizardsâŚ
Because those games understand the difference between classes and roles/builds.
Not in aRPGs where you donât have character creation screen.
This doesnât mean âdesigned forâ aka hybrid classes.
Itâs okay to see in the open map a fragile sorceress that stacked strength and equipped a heavy sword. Whatâs not okay is the sorceress class to support such meme variation with skills.
Most of the cRPGs Iâve played support actual hybrid classes though.
A lot of them also support multi-classing.
Even D&D, the grand daddy of the RPG genre, supports hybrids. A Paladin is basically just a Fighter crossed with a Cleric, for example.
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Diablo 4 should have hybrid classes of course, but it should also have pure classes.
I personally view sword sorceress and casting barb as meme variations since both of these classes characteristics go against such combination. And thatâs not TQ with the dual classes scenario.
You do have character creation screens in an A-RPG.
It is called talent trees, attributes etc.
If they allow for it, they are designed for it. The intelligence attribute does not show up by accident for the barb class.
They should definitely have skill support for it. Quite a lot of skill support even.
Iâd say at least 4-8 defensive skills that can also be used by a melee sorc. They will typically be the same ones as a ranged sorc would use. A melee sorc might just use a lot more defensive skills at the same time, due to being in melee.
1-3 utility skills. Such as enhancing a weapon in various ways - further differentiation can happen in skill upgrades, so 1 weapon enhancement skill might be enough to cover both melee sorceress and caster sorceress. Like the melee sorc deals increased physical dmg with an enhanced weapon, while a caster sorc gets increased mana regen or whatever - along with other options of course.
Then you can have 1-4 different attack skills that work with melee weapons. As before, they can merely be skill upgrades. Like
- Arc Lash: Unleash arcing lightning that shocks enemies in front of you and then returns to you, restoring mana.
It might have a skill upgrade where enemies affected by the lash, takes increased physical dmg from you.
Even in the case of the melee Sorceress itâs not like itâs unsupported by Diablo lore. It existed in Diablo 2.
The idea that a wizard or mage starts using their magic to buff themselves up for melee combat is hardly a rare concept.
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No. Designed means supported by skills.
Then you should have another INT class that doesnât support STR builds. Otherwise you end up in the black circle.
And it shouldnât be. INT/STR combo should exist in a class. I am not sure just that the sorceress is the best choice, thatâs all.
Itâs established in Diablo 2 that Sorceresses do that, though.
Not to mention in Diablo 4 we know weâre only getting 5 classes total at launch. Thatâs not exactly a lot of slots to have a wide variety of class fantasies.
I could see it if this were a game with 10+ classes like D&D/Pathfinder have, but the reality is that if the Sorceress canât do a mage knight build, we probably arenât getting a mage knight.
They are among the oldest RPG ideas.
Including in all previous Diablo games.
Nope. You end up with the option to go into the black circle. Nobody forces you to.
=> more build diversity and options.
Now, I dont think Int, Str etc. should exist in Diablo 4. But what those attributes represents, should.
All classes should be able to go for âStrengthâ. All classes should be able to go for âIntâ. Each getting something meaningful and different out of it.
That is what indicates a good, deep, character building RPG.
Designed means designed. Literally everything you see in a video game is designed, unless it is exploits.
But yes, it should of course be supported by skills/skill upgrades.
It is not only skills though. Items are as important. A sorceress should be able to use a shield. A barb should be able to use a bow. A barb might not be particularly good as using said bow, but it should definitely be able to pick one up, and give it a try. And if the character design is good, that barb should be able to pick skills that supports and strengthen its use of a bow. It might not have any attacks that directly uses a bow, so it might need to rely on buffing itself and debuffing enemies, to let the bow do anything useful.
Whereas an Amazon has attack skills that more directly synergizes with a bow.
Allowing players to create hybrid variants of their class doesnât mean that the classes were designed specifically to go hybrid; it just means that players can opt for a wider variety of builds with their class at potentially a cost (likely damage cost). For example a sorcerer whoâs trained in melee combat along with magic (hybrid), wouldnât be stronger than a sorcerer who focused solely on training their their magic (non-hybrid). In fact, in terms of magical fire power, the hybrid melee sorcerer would be weaker than pure magic sorcerer; however as a trade-off the hybrid melee sorcerer would be more versatile than the pure magic sorcerer.
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Which seems weird to me cause if you think about it a Barbarian should be a pretty good bow user on account of them being able to utilize their impressive strength to have hilariously high draw weight bows.
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Agreed. Only used it as an example. Iâd be quite fine with barbs being amazing bow users 
At the cost of being less good at other stuff of course.
Look, if you donât support a class with specific skills for hybrid builds you arenât ending in the black circle. A class should be designed as a hybrid so that the player effectively uses it as a hybrid. And if you design all classes as hybrids you end up with one big mess.
Allowing exists so you have bad/meme builds. This is different than a class designed to be a hybrid. The melee sorcerer from your example should not be able to achieve much with his sword when his class isnât designed for that.
This is part of how Diablo works though. Diablo 3 is probably the most pure class that the game has gotten and it shouldnât exactly be held up as the pinnacle of class design.
In Diablo 2 you had things like Singer Barbarians that were casting based, using skills specifically designed for that. You also had Enchant Sorceress, Poison Dagger Nercros, etc.
Most classes in Diablo have been hybrids. Youâre basically arguing against the entire series at this point.
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I donât see why not; especially if the sorcerer could enchant their sword with elemental magic and release waves of fire, lightning, or ice when they swing their blade.
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And I have nothing against that as mentioned many times in this thread. Hybrids are fine. All classes being hybrids is not fine.
Which as I pointed out the limited number of classes means that they should favour most if not all of them being hybrids as they always have in Diablo.
Diablo 2 has no problems with class fantasy despite most if not all classes being hybrids.
I expect D4 to have many classes added as DLCs and we should have all combos at some point. I highly doubt weâll run out of builds to play in the near future after release.