The purpose of +Projectile affix isnt to encourage people to fit in multiple projectile skills. It would do that to some degree sure (just like legendary and unique affixes often will), but all the design to encourage using different skills against different enemies should accomplish the opposite. Going all in on projectile skills should have drawbacks, the same way going pure fire, or pure single-target.
The purpose with +Projectile instead of +Fireball is to reduce annoying item RNG. As you say, getting a +fireball affix on an item is very pointless unless you want that +Fireball. There are a fair amount of skills in the game. And they are class based, to make it even worse. Lots if item permutations. D3 style. Really bad imo.
Adding them up to categories that goes across classes just make itemization work better, by making it a lot more reasonable to get useful items.
A balancing act between meaningless stats (+all skills, +all resist etc.) and too much RNG.
I could see a few legendaries/uniques (well, not even legendaries, unless they get away from the silly idea of making them stackable, and randomly available in all item slots, which really should be changed regardless) have +all skill as their unique affix. Like a SoJ ring. But never as a normal affix.
Of course, +skills is just an example for this topic, since it seems like the game wont actually have +skills anymore… another thing on my endless list of stuff that should change in my view
Even attributes are not like that in PoE. If you have no AoE skills, and you add a bunch of points into Intellect? It wont work well.
I dont see those two as opposites in any way. Even if you make a mediocre build (within reason… like a Paladin with 6 auras and no attacks might always struggle, and really should struggle, imo), due to picking specialized skills, passives, attributes, affixes etc. that do not mix well, campaign likely will be doable anyway, if you try enough. You dont need generalized stats for that.
That is also the Dark Souls way, considering you can finish that at lvl 1 (something I very much dont think should be possible in an A-RPG though. Having some minimum of a build, and gear, should be a requirement).
Undoing mistakes is called lvling a new character
Though I begrudgingly accept that some sort of respecs must be available. Hopefully just in limited form.
If you can undo your mistakes too easily, they cant even be considered mistakes anymore. They are meaningless. Let the players struggle, and learn.
Or just use some logic. Like if you use fireball and meteor as your main dmg skills, probably dont pick cold passives and cold geare affixes etc. It is not like it is rocket science what you need to do.
Tutorials can also communicate that to the last few people who couldnt figure it out on their own. As long as you dont make choices as bad as the example above, it is very unlikely anything will stop you in those first 5 hours.
Like, I am currently playing a CRPG that has a green thumbs up or a green thumbs down, on skills that it thinks are good or bad matches for what you have already picked. You dont have to follow it, and it can definitely be wrong with its recommendations, but it helps that new player who got no idea what they are doing.
Well, I have argued many times for an Arena where you can choose an enemy to fight, and do whatever skill/attribute setup you want. To do exactly that. Imo, you should not be able to pick whatever gear you want though, there has to be limits to the handholding
thats obviously not what im taking about
more like starting to go into some skilltree trying to do specific synergies and then unlocking some new poggers skill system that tells you you should have picked something else to be effective
thats why i dont like many different things
just show me everything from the beginning and i am responsible and no i dont want to test out a max level character in an arena before playing the game XDDDD
How will you see everything before starting?
Attributes, skill tree etc. should all be available to see from the start. But unless the game spoils which enemies you will encounter, and what they do, you cant have full information (nor do I think you should).
I really dont see how it is a problem to expect people to figure things out on their own It is a game for a reason. The game can have a few tutorials to ensure completely lost people are helped in the right direction, but after that, figure things out yourself imo.
just not knowing what you will be able to put into your character
like in sacred 1 you have a set amount of skills you can learn and they are unlocked at certain levels and without the handbook or internet you wouldn’t know when, which and how many skills you are able to learn and you will brick yourself at level 20 which you will only find out at level 50
Well there shouldn’t be the possibility for mistakes in build making. However, there should always be the option to change your mind without having to create a new character.
well i agree
even tho it could have been enough in other cases like sacred to just KNOW whats coming, changing your mind is definitely a thing that happens and i would also not consider “casual”
Neither would I. You can plan ahead all you’d like but if the abilities don’t feel right or how you wanted them, that avenue to change is a good thing.
That’s a good point, though I would prefer using some of the already existing skill catagories such as +Basic, +Spenders etc. since they use different resource mechanics and, most of the time, you don’t want more than one from each.
On the other hand, I like the idea of having some powerful affixes that are difficult to get. Sort of endgame item chase stuff. RNG could also be reduced with smartdrop, like increased chance to get +1 to skills equipped in the skillbar. There’s also the enchantment/crafting option.
And sure, +1 to all skills could be just a Unique power (not Legendary I agree), even though it could also be a normal Unique affix since they are not random and could be limited to a few of them.
That’s true, I might even say that a Paladin with no attack should not be able to go very far in the game. ^^ There has to be a limit, like your example of a player choosing cold affixes and talents when using fire skills. There’s a difference between playing by instinct and stupidity.
To rephrase what I mean, having an attribute named after the core fantasy of a class implies that it can’t be a bad choice (even if not the optimal one). Now I understand your design could be named differently, and maybe it should to avoid any confusion.
On a personnal note, I like the fantasy of Strength, Dexterity etc. and my ideal balance would be that any Barbarian would need some Strength, since it’s what a Barbarian is supposed to be anyway, but it would greatly vary between builds (like 20-80% of total), the rest being allocated in one, two or even three of the secondary attributes.
That’s generally a sign of bad design. Pyramidal systems need to follow some logic, like:
1- Choice of skills
2- Skillpoints to improve skill ranks
3- Skill modifiers that unlock with skill ranks
D4 systems are not ideal imo, as you have to invest skill and attribute points as soon as level 2, but at least you can see in the tree what you can get and what attributes you need to unlock additional effects.
And of couse there is the eventual option of respec.
i mean it’s fine if you can see what you get?
the only problem is when you have to invest into skills you dont wanna use just to reach another skill you want to use
so yea, a system the functions a bit more like last epoch would make more sense
it’s still possible in the current visual design
Yes I don’t like that either. On the other end, and though it’s an improvement over current D4’s tree, yours is kind of a LE system concentrated in one tree.
I just wish there was another type of node than Talent points to fill out the tree and allow you to bypass unwanted skills. And maybe some reason not to take every node for a skill you’re using, it seems far too easy as it is.
That could definitely be a way to do it yeah. I’d prefer both.
True.
I really hope we dont get that. So much of the fun in A-RPGs imo, is finding items that encourage you to do new builds and lvl other classes.
Yeah, I would really take all the skills out of the tree. Make them all available at lvl 1 too, for maximum replayability. Instead of having to go down the exact same unlock pattern every single time like D2 and D3.
Haven’t even played the game yet, waiting for actual release, but yep, seems like the best skill progression system around.
I’m much closer to Shadout’s PoV as well, the game shouldn’t be beatable by default… In general if I were to pick a “companion” game/genre to combine with would be Doom Ethernal to me tbh, kinda love that concept of being “forced” to use “everything yet minimal” at the right time to survive for another day tbh… Probably not all the time (cause it can get stressful, especially if the combat lasts quite a while) but still, better have those “checkpoints” of efficiency of combat…
Some of the RPGs out there (like GD, LE, e.t.c.) have a veteran/masochist mode, here’s the thing = I’d very much like for Diablo to be a 50% Vet/Maso mode by default (baseline), otherwise the game loses traction tbh, becomes like an “anime” where the goal isn’t whether or not you kill & survive, but how much or how fast you kill stuff & progress (or “fail”), and that’s quite a turn off for what I’d imagine/hope would be most of us tbh
In other words - death should be something totally embraced by the game and not give the players a “false hope” that the only time they die would be after they beat the final boss at some power-ranking/“godlike” runs… The issue isn’t whether or not death is introduced and embraced in a game, the issue (IMO) comes from places/mob-designs where death is simply “enforced” on us (i.e. no counterplay, cheap deaths, like homing missile + critial hit, or “Vortex” i.e. unavoidable CC & such)
That being said, here’s what I think is a nice/good route to achieve most of what’s been talked about tbh
1 - Make each skill relatively weak (baseline), and therefore increase the benefit of upgrades of it to differ, for example:
Let’s say initially Fireball a 0.5 sec. channel/cast animation and relatively slow/er-ish projectile baseline, and say the Frostbolt is a single-target slow-only, minimal damage, with limited range baseline
Just by designing skills that way - you’re gonna be “starved” for bits of affixes that relate to them, and probably get excited when you see affix/es like:
Targetted skills and projectiles no longer have a delay on cast
Cast range of all non-AoE skills increased by 15%, or
Increase projectile speed and range by 20%, or
Cast range and radius of all AoE skills increased by 20%
So, by having those “forced choices” the following sort of early/mid-game step-by-step goals are achieved:
each piece of gear can have a noticeable/impactful difference
each piece of gear is part of your tactical approach, not just hunting “generics” and bonuses that are “prerequired”
2 - Add hit-stun back, BUT NOT on swarmers (and other mobs of lowest ranks)
I get it, hit-stun is probably a required feature to not make the game feel like “anime” where you channel a ray and 100 things die, but think despite exactly hit-stun is what makes the “swarmers” viable, think it’s enough if you just add it to non-swarmers and the swarmers could just “follow up” on stuff
Additionally that “opens the space for following couple of affixes”
Reduce damage taken from basic attacks by X%
Reduce damage taken from special attacks by X%
Reduce subsequent damage taken from all attacks by X%
Reduce damage taken from missiles by X (or X%)
Each of those would be a “primary armor affix” type, i.e. the very “next thing” you’ll read in an armor piece right below their Armor/DEF rate (primary/quality tier), and then you can “combine” stuff, whether you’d “specialise” your defence against you know:
Basic attacks (affecting every mob type, but probably lesser amount)
Melee attacks (affecting melee attacks only, but higher %)
Projectile attacks (higher %)
Have a situational/generic defensive affix/trigger (basically anti-swarmer/anti-projectile) of “Subsequent damage taken reduced by X%”
Or simply have a higher armor (to endure/perform better 1v1 against tougher guys)
Notice how we haven’t even mentioned the DoT/Curses/Debuffs YET at all, and that’s the beauty of it, then you can add stuff/affixes like:
1 - Limit stacks of DoT taken to X
2 - Limit impair types taken at a time to X
3 - Impair effects reduced by X%
4 - X% chance to self-cleanse when condition (healthy, injured, shielded, buffed, CC-ed, e.t.c.)
5 - X% chance to cast defensive trigger WhenHit (you know, knockback, shield, AoE ability like a Frost or Elemental Nova, maybe even Mirror Image could work, Decoy, or could just be to reset a defensive ability on your skillbar or reduce CD)
Basically the whole moto/goal behind this approach is the following:
The more STARVED you are towards defensive affixes (in general) the more impactful (and potentially rewarding) it will feel when you did something right, makes combat more dynamic approach and not just balance between defence and offence but ALSO what kind
Here’s how it may work offensively as well:
1 - Physical damage
2 - Elemental damage
3 - Single-Target damage (i.e. from Targetted skills)
4 - Melee damage (i.e. from melee skills, BOTH physical and elemental)
5 - Area damage
6 - Hit-Effect power
7 - Socket power
8 - DoT & Impair
And each of those will have “subcategories” of affixes to choose from:
Physical:
Bonus ATK, ShredArmor, GuaranteedMinimumHit, Chance to Hit-effect (physical)
Elemental
OnHit elemental component, Increased X% per element type (fire/frost/poison/shadow/lightning/e.t.c.), Shred resistance (both generic or per type), chance to hit-effect (elemental)
Single-Target
Lifesteal, Manasteal, Shred CC reduction, Shred Impair reduction, Increased hit-effect power, Increased hit-effect chance, Increased execute threshold (could be vs Ogres, Elites, Non-Elites, Non-Ogres), Bonus from rare/behind, chance to hit-effect (All)
Melee:
Both from Physical and ST, + OnKill stuff (reset, rebuff), Reset = Resets your CDs of melee type, Rebuff = resets duration to all your buffs, chance to hit-effect (All)
Area:
All elemental + Range of cast, Area of cast, chance to hit-effect (Elemental)
Hit-effects of type X ignore target defensive buffs (shields, bonus armor from casts, e.t.c.), Hit-effects of type X ignore target defensive stats, hit-effect chance, hit-effect power, hit-effect radius, (Same but conditional)
Socket Power
Chance to drop sockets and runes of extra quality/tier, Empower affixes from sockets in this item by X%, Empower socket affixes in all armor pieces by X%, Empower socket affixes in all weapon & jewelry by X%. Affect a skill instead of used on gear
DoT & Impair
Gain additional stack of DoT & Impair, Increase DoT & Impair duration, Ignore target Impair/DoT reduction by X%, X% chance to double-stack duration, X% chance to double stack-power
e.t.c.
And finally:
3 - DROP Item ratio, not in numbers, but in permanence, by making the majority of drops be expendable/consumable stuff like potions/scrolls & such
Make the majority of drops to be consumables (this should make the game be somewhat hoardable, just cap, but not trade-based on the long run), but in return make Consumables count, i.e. not just mana, HP, rejuv potions, but also consumables like:
Potion of transparency (move through enemies, projectiles pass through)
Potion of return-damage/retaliation (cause mobs damage themselves for a while, retaliate projectiles back)
Potion of invisibility (become invisible, take only AoE & Impair for the duration)
Potion of Precision (increase hit-effect power and chance)
Potion of Iron skin (reduce Physical damage taken)
Potion of Elemental absorption (reduce Elemental damage taken)
Potion of Cleanse (cleanse yourself from all DoTs and Impairs for a duration)
Potion of wither (double Impair/DoT stacks on targets nearby)
Potion of Life/Resource return (gain LifeSteal/Manasteal (but also applies to energy/fury/e.t.c. i.e. resource) return for duration)
Potion of the Elements (fire, frost, lightning, poison, shadow) - “imbue” yourself with a certain element causing all basic and single-target attacks to deal elemental damage of X type
Potion of Rage (gain AS/MS bonuses for a while)
Potion of the Magi (all spells cost no mana for a period but can’t move for a while)
e.t.c.
THAT is the right approach IMO, solves a lot of problems at the cost of “not being too farm-friendly” in return, which I also think is a positive thing on the long/er run
And last but not least IMO:
4 - Remove/reduce “telegraphed” attacks, favour a “areas of impact” rank of damage instead
Don’t make the game feel like “avoid circles rectangles and triangles and you’ll be fine”, INSTEAD make us have a “vague idea” where the attack’s gonna land but in return add “areas of damage” to it, i.e. being hit by the very edge is not the same as being hit in center of a big boss AoE stuff
It’s ok if some attacks are not quite avoidable (I’d guess most except bigger ones at a boss fight) and don’t think we need a telegraph of stuff every 2nd non-swarmer mob does, instead what would be useful is add “areas of effect” of being hit (25%, 50%, 100%, similar to the Widow Mine) whether we’ve been hit by the dead center, somewhere in between, or total edge of stuff
Think the most “handicap” towards players should come in the form of not being able to “perform as they please” and not being 100% well-tactical prepared to zone/CC stuff, as well as always being forced to “give up” something on offence (rather than defence & movement not being a pixel-perfect material)
a few things, you aren’t getting, nor ever had that type of difficulty as a base line in any Blizzard game ever. They make game that appeal to the masses, or rather are accessible to the masses. The fastest way to lose traction in a game is to make it too difficult for the masses.
The game should be beatable by default. You pick a class, the skills, and gear you like and you should be able to clear the campaign. How easy or difficult that is should easily depend on the skills and gear chosen, but no build should be locked out from beating the campaign just becasue they didn’t have proper synergy, didn’t have enough variety becasue there are immunities in the game, or breakpoints that allow a player to ignore core gameplay mechanics all together.
With that said, I think you are basing some of this death stuff on the 9 years of knowledge most players have of Diablo 3 and the changes made to the game since launch. People died all the time. Those that have experience playing ARPGs who value efficiency just aren’t going to die no matter what the difficulty becasue of the way they play. Leave the challenge for endgame. Which there is plenty of dying in D3 on T16 and higher GR runs.
The original was too close to D3 imo
I know if you break it down it kinda becomes something similar but I just like the tree aesthetic.
Also I personally don’t like the idea of “weak skills and ultimate skills” I think that all skills should be equally important and only for different situations so I don’t need that tiered system. I also don’t need generators I am a cultured basic attack enjoyer.
So a system where you can pick all skills from the beginning and make them better with skill points would be the best for me personally.
And herein lies the problem, the goal and approach should be to make the game FAIR by default (not beatable, FAIR is the goal). Anyone that has the proper mindset/experience/tactical-approach should have most things “narrowed down” to mostly beatable, but NEVER beatable by default… The build/skill being the preface/requirement to how hard will it be will just make it EVEN WORSE
In other words - all Blizz needs to do is MAKE SURE that there will be no cheap deaths or deaths caused by “you stepped 0.1 pixel inside this” type of stuff, and/or “brickwalls” like Act2 vanilla stuff, that’s all
Can be tricky, but pretty sure can be done, not an impossible if one has me asked tbh
You forget the third factor, gear, and 4th factor even = correct tactical use… Gear should allow your “suboptimal” builds to do decent, but again, game should not be easy/beatable by default, correct tactical use should disallow you to win even if you play the “strongest builds” (on the META/ladder, even though such a thing shouldn’t even exist tbh)
THIS may sound controversial, but is the CORRECT approach… Forget the “should have HC” mentality, no game should be “available” in HC mode (at least not in first release version)
Make the game dynamic/tactical/challenging and FAIR in your demise/misuse, but certainly embrace death as part of it… And then, after say some 50 iterations of “figuring out” devs & players some day decide/agree on where/how some careful tweaks and nerfs should “go down” to beatable by 1st time and introduce HC (with couple additional defensive affixes available only in HC)
THAT is the way how things should be done, otherwise a LOT OF WIGGLEROOM is being given to both devs/designers to focus on the “wrong” stuff i.e. on visuality and spectacle detailing rather than the game’s core mechanics and it’s health on the long term
And SADLY the correct mindset is to have is no compromise, treat the two as exclusive to one another in order to make sure things are focused/heading in the right direction… The very slightest of wigglerooms can (and probably will) be taken for granted and (again) have things focused on the “first time being whoooa, wow” effect rather than “each time feels different and has different challenges to overcome” outcome of game/progression/replayability (and long term health therefore) overall
Sort of. You only got a skill if you decided to put a skill point into it and could buff it.
I’d rather have that than requiring me to take talents I may not want just to get ine I do, or worse, making me take ones I don’t want just to buff the ones I do.
In a way they kind of ar equal. The “ultimates” have long CDs, making them somewhat on par with using weaker ones for a minute or longer. I get it though.
Being beatable by any spec is fair. The challenge lies in it may take an hour for that indestructible tank to kill the boss, where a glass canon can do it in 5 minutes, but will die real easily to a couple hits.
Baseline campaign should provide minimal challenge, just like D1, D2, and D3 did before. D4 will not have multiple run through of the campaign on higher and higher difficulties, so that is where endgame comes in. If you want what you’ve asked for this is where you apply that.
Want to make successful keyed dungeon runs? Well your sub optimal build may need some tinkering, maybe some specific legendary affixes, rune combinations, or you may need to hit certain talent breakpoints. Maybe some endgame aspect will require a diverse selection of abilities to counter the challenges instead of all O, no D or utility.
But again, you seem to be coming from a perspective that D4 will be a walk in the park despite everything that has been said about the philosophy of the game. And no, your approach isn’t correct, it’s just your opinion. Just like mine is my opinion. Blizzard seems to side on my approach of making the campaign/early game accessible and rather easy, as this has been the case for every single Blizzard title ever published. There is a reason their games do very well.
