Choosing your skills is already about balancing between ST and AoE. Having to do it again through attributes is redundant, and still a trap if a Barbarian invests all in Strength just to discover he was supposed to have some in Intelligence too.
If you choose no ST or no AOE skill you are not really balancing between them. The skill choices is a more fundamental choice. The attributes merely adjust power a bit. Attributes is/should be more comparable to gear in that way imo.
Anyway, there is nothing wrong with having to make choices regarding the same topic over and over. Otherwise we could use the same argument to get rid of all gear?
But the point is he is not supposed to have int too. Either can work just fine, if combined with the right skills.
And both can lead to failure. But how is that a bad thing? Being able to make a bad build is good. If you cant, then there is no point to the game in the first place.
Specialized attributes should not result in ruined builds at all. Just different builds with different strengths and weaknesses.
Besides, even if I dont like it much, respecs will exist in some capacity.
If you add generic universal stats to help beginners, you kinda make it worse, by adding “noob traps”, stuff that works okay in the beginning, but is not something that can compete with specialized stats later on. Better just to not have those universal stats tbh.
And for gear, it is not like you cant design gear that has a bit of everything on them, like the starter sets Blizzard talked about.
Like an item with +5% melee dmg and +5% ranged dmg. Likely not an optimal choice, but a weak average one that wont hurt you. Each affix is still specialized though.
Likewise, you can spread out your attribute points if you want to make a safe choice. Likely not a good choice, but one that might allow you to get through most of the game at least.
Just having a universal “safe” attribute that does everything for you though, meh, that will never be interesting. Maybe it help the beginner, but it does so by ruining the game for everyone else. There are better tools for helping beginners.
Heck, I dont even mind green/red arrows and such. The game could easily tell you; you picked these 2 skills at lvl 5, so you might want to use these attributes, for example. Again it might not be an optimal choice, but enough to get the player going on their first character.
What I’m mostly hoping for is each class have 3 different types of builds (some more some less but mostly viable) Targetted/1-by-1 snipe, Melee, and AoE… Kinda wishful thinking I guess and a bit out of the possibilities ATM, but still viable/achievable goal I think 
Not having an AoE skill is not really a choice in an ARPG tbh. But it’s possible to invest more in AoE or balance it with ST skills. Anyway, why add another system (attributes) to do the same choice ?
If attributes effects only serve as a minor adjustement then they don’t really matter… which would be OK actually, I think the breakdown system is the important part.
However, gear choice should be much more significant, as if you don’t have resistances your character will be useless.
I agree but specializing also means choosing specific skills, talents, affixes etc. to combo. A player that just want a generic Barbarian he/she can bring up to endgame should be able to do just that (of course it wouldn’t be on the best Barbarian builds list).
As a Pillar of Eternity designer once said, “all builds should be viable, only a handful should be optimized”. ^^ Now maybe it should be possible to ruin a character if you choose only different specialized attributes and talents that doesn’t add up, but not with counter-intuitive options, like a Barbarian no getting through hordes because he invested in Strength.
Yeah, and it should not be very viable to not have an AoE skill. But we need to reach the same point for not having an ST skill. Which is what has been severely lacking in previous games.
To add more gameplay, more depth.
Attributes serves the same purpose as gear, or skill trees. Sure, we could get rid of gear, and attributes, and skill trees. But you are removing the main aspect of the game then.
That said, as someone who thought it was a good thing D3 removed attributues, no D4 does not need to have attributes. If Blizzard cant make something better than what they are proposing for D4 currently, then better to get rid of it.
But a good attribute system > not having one.
For multiple reasons; for one, it offers power gains on your character, so the character build is less dependent on gear. The character should matter on its own. Second, it offers a very different type of system from both skill and gear choices; one there you pick a “package” of something. Instead of handpicking skills/upgrades/affixes, a point in str. offers you various things combined. In a way it reduces your ability to make fine-tuned, optimal, choices. Which can be a good thing. It leads back to the strengths and weaknesses. Taking the good and bad together. Also why I am against the proposal some have had on the forum, of simply offering the ability to add points to each affix individually, like in D3 paragon. That goes away from an attribute system, and becomes more like additional gear affixes, even though it is of course still character based.
All systems shouldnt be like that; for skill points it is important you can make indivual, specific choices, and not just pick a package. Same for items (although items have both; rare items offer the specialized choices; uniques offers a package). The point of having different systems of course is that they are different. Multiple identical systems would be pointless.
But attributes and skill points are different. Even if they both give you power in the end. Of course. Since everything in an A-RPG is about increasing power.
Small adjustments here and there is what makes a build though.
We should get far away from Dialbo 3s 100000% dmg increases.
10% from one source, 10% from another, etc. still matters. It just doesn’t turn the game on its head. You can still play without one of those 10%ers.
That is semantics though. Lots and lots of builds in PoE are not viable. I am pretty sure what he meant is that each archetype should be viable. As in a str barb and a int barb. Or a melee sorc. vs. a caster sorc, etc. Which is the exact point I am also arguing for.
That does not mean that every single iteration of a str barb or an int barb will be viable. Nor can it mean that. It would be impossible to make such a game, without making all choices meaningless.
Yeah, that should never happen.
But a barb not picking any AoE skills? Yeah, he might struggle. And he should struggle.
Just like you might struggle in D2 if you are using single dmg type build (and I dont exactly thing immunities are good, but the concept is nearly the same, except that of course a pure ST build can kill all mobs, slowly, a pure AoE build can kill a boss, slowly. So more comparable would be a 90% fire resist enemy etc. Which very much should happen in D4 imo).
Yeah, he definitely should. But creating a generic barb should still come through picking a bunch of specialized choices. You would just spread out your choices among everything. Like a bit of ST, a bit of AoE, multiple dmg types, some offense, some defense etc.
You dont need generic/universal affixes/attributes/passives/skill upgrades to create a generic/universal character.
But you do need specialized ones, to create a specialized character. So make all choices specialized
(although another pet peeve of mine is; dont make them too specialized. +All skills is a bad affix because it is universal. +Fireball skill is bad because it is too specialized. +Projectile, +Fire etc. those are in the middle, and a whole lot better.)
I meant ST and AoE attributes, not attributes as a whole. Of course I agree it’s an important system.
That’s funny because I too was defending their choice in D3 to abandon attribute distribution when leveling. That was when the game had skill trees, skill and talents points, and the talisman to fill with charms that added attributes useful for each class.
Six months later, everything was gone…
Agreed but there’s a huge margin before getting to this extreme. Imo attributes could go as far as +100% damage to a build and still not break everything. For balancing issues, +50% may be enough but it has to be noticeable. 10% is too low really, there are single affixes in D4 with this amount.
Maybe, but that’s what the game (actually he said that for PoE 2, my bad) was aiming for.
The point is, game systems have to be intuitive. If I’m a Sorceress, I probably wouldn’t invest in Strength, and still be ok against bosses.
Agreed, but maybe not right at the start of the game, when you have to choose attributes as soon as level 2. There should be an obvious safe choice, especially while you have to figure out your skills at the same time.
Later though, yes absolutely, every character needs to specialize somewhere. Into ST or AoE even, but maybe it would be more adequate as talents instead of attributes.
Yeah I know you don’t like them. 
The problem with a “+1 to Projectiles” is that may incite the player to choose only Projectile skills, like Fireball instead of Meteor. Same problem with “+Fire” etc. While “+1 to Fireball” won’t incite you to take skills from the same category. And “+1 to all skills” will synergize with anything you chose. ^^ (though it should be on endgame BiS and limited to a few slots)
Ah, no we dont need ST and AoE attributes, they are only there to help fix the imbalance between ST and AoE in A-RPGs. Needs to be somewhere, and attributes systems like a obvious place to add it.
And of course, the attributes need to do something. Very open to alternatives. I just dont want such alternatives to be universal boosts 
Nor something that adheres to class separations (effectively creating main attributes; like elemental and physical dmg boost attributes would essentially make the former the class attribute for 99% of sorcs).
Indeed 
Sure, I also went a fair bit above 10% in my proposal earlier
And that is without adding the power gains from skill node bonuses. If you could hit the “softcap” on 1½-2 attributes, plus skill node bonuses, we might easily be looking at a 100%-150% power boost from these numbers alone.
My argument was that I doubt that is what the game was aiming for. At least most of the design seem to indicate otherwise, as there are lots and lots of skills, passives, gear etc. in both PoE and PoE2 that works horrible together. And are meant to work horrible together. So it cant really be what he meant.
That said, the game has difficulty settings, and you can make wildly overpowered characters (Like I did a solo challenge on highest difficulty in the game once, instead of using the 6 chars you were “meant to”), so in that sense, I guess most builds might “work”. But that would be like saying most builds are viable in Diablo 2, if they can beat Normal mode.
This I can only disagree on. I am much more a fan of throwing people into the game, then they must learn by trying. The Dark Souls way of game design 
The game should be easy enough early on that you are not obliterated by making those choices, and heck, if you want to play it safe, then dont spend all your attribute and skill points as soon as you get them. Keep some so you can adjust to what happens.
And there is also still respecs to fall back on.
I dont see how that is different from +Fireball skill itself also incentivizing choosing fireball instead of meteor. And you will also have +skills that boost meteor but not fireball.
Being incentivized to pick multiple skills from the same category (of which both Fireball and Meteor might belong, such as with +Fire skills) seems like a good thing. Might also be inefficient of course, exactly due to not spreading out your choices to handle different situations. Pros and cons. In both D2 and D3 picking skills from the same skill tree/dmg type allows you to make them stronger. In D2 there is a clear con (immunities) to this however. In D3… not so much, contrary you are only rewarded for doing so.
If D4 did the same, then yeah, +projectiles, +fire skills, etc. would also be fairly bad, as they would effectively be universal. All skills, all attributes, all passives, all gear etc. you can choose should have pros and cons. Specializing into one thing; good and bad. Going hybrid/generic: good and bad.
And thus be completely pointless. That is the kind of thing, like D2 attribute system, that might as well be removed. It does nothing, other than increasing a number, which also does nothing, except incentivizing Blizzard to add similar number increases to enemies, aka. GRift lvls etc. 
They are still going for it with a main stat. Main stats are so boring.
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Because it doesn’t increase the damage per hit/attack. Like Str would make an attack go from 1 to 2. Atk speed it would still be 1. Therefore it is indirect since you will attack more often.
And even more importantly IMO not overcrowd the screen with swarmers to the point where AoE becomes/feels mandatory for the gameplay overall
I mean would be fine on an open field (especially at certain areas where it’s expected to have imps & small birds or whatever), but don’t think should be the case for dungeons as much, like - don’t think that the moment you enter a dungeon the very first thing you see be 30 imps from the get-go is a must lol
Sure have SOME areas/rooms where there are a plethora of “birthers” and summoners (or even healers) sp that AoE prevails in such situations, but don’t think that “having most of lesser, then less of greater, then even less of ogres, then even less of elites” should be a mandatory thing tbh… I guess would “feel” natural, but not necessarily tried/experimented otherwise either I’d say IMO
They could just as well add the “majority of focus” onto fighting “apprentice” mobs i.e. not the ones with least HP that come at groups of 10 or whatever, but the ones that are tad class tankier and come in groups of 3 or 4
Sure there will be elites & ogres and stuff but don’t think that the game should feel “obliged” to swarm us with “thrashmobs”, the moment I see that I kinda get that feeling that “the"goal” is to farm and gather Exp which don’t get me wrong, although is a key/fundamental aspect of RPGs don’t think should be “forced” on us also
I’d kinda go that route tbh, focus the game around 1v5 to 1v7-ish stuff and sometimes add to that 10-15 little guys but sometimes just add a couple of ogres to that “package”… Same with Elites, don’t always have to have the Ogre elites that you literally have to “stop” to fight forever and unless having that crit at “pedal to the metal” status you’d have to fight like forever with those…
Although you’re right, technically there could be some brute/melee knights armored to the bone that take negligible damage unless target has some minimal/certain Str threshold… 
, another thing that might be added is add some “connection” between certain types of hit-effects with damage done so then Str matters more than just investing into AS overall…
Gandalf was not weak. I do not like the idea of a frail sorceress or wizard
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I would if we go that route just have classic attributes and be able to make a buff melee sorc^^
Strong and agile sorceress in action who can fight at melee and ranged without investing STR in her stat. Just being clever on how to use her spells at the right timing. 
Another one from the Marvel What If series where Dr.Strange was literally carrying his teams with his back. He can buff his team’s stat, support the team and DPS the main boss at the same time:
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Yep.
Str sorcs, dex sorcs, int sorcs etc should all be a thing. And all are a thing in fantasy and RPGs.
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Tasty. lol. Yes! Something like that would be neat. Doesn’t necessarily need to wield a melee weapon or whatever. But having that martial prowess with quick spell slinging reflexes to form attacks and even weapons from magic. A very physically trained mage. I mean different fighting styles exist why shouldn’t different magic fighting styles exist?
One spell I’ve thought would be cool, is something like an “Ice Javelin” The animation would show ice forming as the character lifts their hand back like they are getting ready to throw something and by the time their hand is all the way back the javelin is fully formed and they toss it. Could be like a basic/primary attack.
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Yeah, strongly agreed.
Much fewer enemies, and much more diverse enemies.
Heck, I’ve mentioned it before, but I’d like to see enemies that start spreading out if you try to use AoE on them. And others that enrage (more dmg, more speed, CC immune for example) if you use specific attacks on them, such as AoE. Others might enrage if you use specific dmg types etc.
When running into a group of enemies, I want to look at them, and consider how I should handle them, based on the enemy types and composition. Over time you will of course know instinctively, but you should still adhere to those tactics, and not just use “solution A” for everything.
Of course. Every attribute point spent should have some weight behind the decision. If we have main stats and breakpoints, all everyone will do is reach those breakpoints on those stats then stack for health afterwards. Which is boring AF.
I’m not a fan of breakpoints but understand why they are there. It just seems to me to guide me to play how the devs want that build or skill “should” be played. I mean if I want to spec into being an impenetrable tank, that would have to come at the expense of other attributes that would help me down mobs faster and/or reduce my mobility or ability to escape. But that should be my option. If I wanted to go all offense enhancing attributes, that would come at the expense of health/def and utility.
As of now, it really looks no different than D2. Main stat and other to breakpoints then end for survivability. I doubt specs would vary much from the attributes side of things.
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Agreed, As soon as they revealed the attributes and showed examples of what they’d do, I just assumed that the allocation would be Damage 1st, then Crit 2nd. Other stuff can be made up on gear. Unless they remove crit damage increases from the game then crit chance and damage will just be something people stack again to max their damage. Feels like they are taking two problems from different games and putting it into one. Crit damage and chance stacking from D3 and Attribute allocation priorities from D2 
I guess that’s where our point of view can’t reconcile. For me, Diablo is all about finding the best builds, but also a fun ride through campaign for everyone. Not necessary easy all the time but everybody can get to the endgame. So it should be very hard to ruin a character to the point of being incapable to beat the final boss.
To summarize : at a high level, all attributes should be equally useful, depending on the build. At a casual level, when you don’t really know what you’re doing, it’s safer to just dump into an always useful stat (hoarding is not fun and will weaken the character anyway), though it almost never will be the optimal choice.
I think he was speaking of attributes specifically, you’re certainly right about the rest but it seems a player could invest anywhere and still finish the game without struggling too much.
That’s because you’re using Fireball instead of Meteor in the first place. If you find a +Fireball but you already specialized in Chain Lightning, this affix is useless for you. Skill choice comes first.
On the other hand I don’t see how affixes that incite players to choose specific skills to synergize can do anything but reducing build diversity, that’s exactly what D3’s sets do. Unless there are affixes that boost both Projectiles and Area skills at the same time, but it may be simplier to just allow +1 to a specific skill.
As for +All Skills, yeah that’s just for the feeling of pure awe when you find such a powerful stat. ^^ Imo, not every affix should always be about specialization (just the majority of couse).
Indeed, big swarm situations should not happen too often, or it would kill the feeling of “that’s ridiculous !” which is so great in Diablo. Like in the Act 5 nephalem city, there’s swarmers all the time, it doesn’t feel special at all.
yea i guess it depends on the game and the possibilities of undoing “mistakes” xD
in games like monster hunter the only thing you have to settle for is the looks of your character^^
everything else you can always just reforge, etc.
there are no skilltrees or attributes