D4: Attributes and Stat – Blizzard: MAKE A NEW GAME PLS!

Hardly such thing. Back at classic D3, your character needed every kind of stat to survive Inferno difficulty, but has to keep their main stat marginally higher than the other stats to deal damage.
As a Witch Doctor, you still needed armor from strength, dodge from dexterity yet still stack resistance; because intelligence stat wasn’t capable of reaching such heights we know from present day Diablo 3. Barbarians had to keep their crits and crowd control while Wizards couldn’t stay alive out of their absorbing shields. Same pretty much applied to Monks and Demon Hunters while they ought to stack life regeneration on top of everything for mending their scrapes and recover while running around and dealing damage over time.

In modern D3 RoS, you don’t have such “choice” as stats choose you, you don’t choose or filter stats thanks to smart roll system anymore. That depends on itemization, not necessarily can be tied to stat system itself. To recall, in Diablo 4 there’s no true way of increasing health by dumping stats into Vitality. It supposedly coming from items with +health affix. Simply, if you don’t want player to focus on one stat, you remove smart roll and problem solves itself.

I’d be quite fine with having no dmg on attributes. But even stuff like lower resource cost etc. translates to dmg.

Indirectly, yes. But having multiple stats like Resource costs. Gives you multiple roads to increase that damage indirectly. Pretty much most non-defense stat would indirectly increase damage. Attack Speed, Resource Gen, CDR, etc.
I wouldn’t be upset with multiple damage sources via attributes, like Single target, AoE, and Dot. With some obvious tweaks mentioned before, like no crit on AoE abilities. This possibility would allow for different builds and make all attributes used at least in different builds on the same class.

Which is probably my biggest gripe with one attribute granting direct damage increases luring people into a main stat situation, where everyone of that class will only ever use that stat. Seems silly to me in a game genre about being able to theory craft new builds limiting people to one attribute allocation path.

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Agreed, there definitely shouldnt be an affix that increases all dmg.

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Thanks for the explaination but the very fact you need to do that is the problem itself : the player has to understand an affix immediately because there won’t be anybody ingame to do it for you (that was also a problem with FHR in D2).

That’s why I think it’s more important to keep things simple than competitive… though I’m pretty sure both are obtainable since it’s just a matter of filling different build needs.

Haha ^^ yeah, it’s doubtful they will be perfectly balanced even after X patches, considering how D3 still struggles with its 125 skill variations per class.

Effects of attributes are different from class to class, but there are always the same 7 effects :
+Damage
+Defense
+Res
+Dodge
+Crits
+Healing
+Energy regen

With the breakdown system to top it all, every attribute should be useful for every class, depending on the build of course.

I like GD system too, but it could also be called “Strength, Dexterity etc.” The names don’t really matter, what’s important is what they do (which is not 100% satisfying in D4 at the moment, that’s true).

If Clueso see this thread, he may show you his own class-exclusive attribute system, he has the same idea as you. ^^

with classes being so narrowed into their way of playing you can aswell just scrap the idea of attributes like str, dex, int because its just doubling down on what they are doing anyway

i would have preferred ADA
it would at least have been a choice

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Looks like an excellent system.
I just wonder why Intelligence doesn’t boost AoE Damage instead ? I understand it can’t be as much as Single Target Damage, but with only increased area it gets useless in many situations, especially against the most dangerous enemies like bosses. Also, AoE abilities would need to start with a small area to justify investing in Intelligence, which would feel quite underwhelming.

Another drawback I see in this design may be that it doesn’t emphasize class fantasy, like Sorceress getting as much use of Strength as Barbarian doesn’t really makes sense. This particular system would benefit from having more general names like Focus, Cunning, Might or what else.

And that’s where I stopped reading.

Now this, I think, would be a revolutionary system for Diablo.

Wouldn’t it be better for Int to increase elemental damage as well? Or at least increase chance for elemental effects to occur (for example increase chance for fire damage to burn, ice damage to freeze, and lightning damage to shock)?

AoE should be fairly useless against bosses, so that is very much the purpose.

That said, having no dmg increase at all might be an issue in terms of endgame scaling.
I guess it could be like Increase AoE radius by a decent amount, and dmg by a small amount.
Like 100 points in Str increases singletarget dmg by 50%, but 100 point in Int only increases AoE dmg by 10%, and AoE radius by 30% for example.

Some AoEs will surely start with a small radius, such as a cleave, or an explosion range on Fireball. It would be totally fine if some AoE builds, like a Blizzard Sorc, would not use Int, exactly because the AoE radius was already large enough for the build. That again offers more diversity imo.
It then serves the same purpose as increased attack speed, or reduced cost. Some builds should not want attack speed, even though it increases dmg, due to making the attacks ressource cost unsustainable to keep going. Or due to having a cooldown that makes the attack speed less relevant. Some builds should not want resource cost reduction, even if the skills they use benefit from it, due to being able to sustain attacks just fine already.

Now, in my description above, presumably most singletarget-focused builds would want Str. I guess if we wanted to create a scenario where that was not the case, str could also increase the resource cost of skills? Giving it a drawback. On the other hand, single-target skills is pretty much always falling behind in A-RPGs, with AoE builds ruling supreme, so I am okay with making it easier/simpler to boost them.
Not to mention, the entire goal with making AoE weaker is that we should not have a whole lot of “Single target builds”, or “AoE builds” in the first place. But rather that most builds have both types of attacks in them. So in that scenario, you might probably still use single target skills, without putting points into Str, due to your build focus being AoE.
While, if the system works as I would like it to, another build could use the exact same skills in a build, but put points into Str instead.
Like a Frostbolt + Blizzard build. One str focused. Another Int focused. Or maybe another Wis focused (if Blizzard counts as dmg over time).

Yeah. Which leads me back to what I started this thread with;
the names should be changed. Not because it really matters, but as you say, some people find it odd to have Str sorceress (in Pillars of Eternity Str is called Might instead, which some people still complain about though).

That is back to being more class based. 90+% of sorceresses would be Int based then.
Whereas most other classes might be mixed.
At least, if it became physical vs. elemental, a lot of sorc skills would need to be changed into dealing physical dmg. Which might also feel odd.

Single-target vs. AoE is a better split imo, since all builds can use both, and hopefully most would, unless AoE is as stupidly balanced as in previous A-RPGs, benefit from having both.

I’d be quite fine with one of the affixes increasing proc chances. That is what ADA did too. (and also what Wolcen does in its attribute system, which is actually one of the better attribute systems around imo, as far as I recall it has Crit chance, Attack speed, Life, Proc Chance)
Initially I had added Proc chance to Dex… but Attack speed already indirectly increases proc chance per time, so it felt redundant.
So either, imo, add proc chance to Wis (not Int imo, again, I fear AoE will already be too strong, it doesn’t need even more incentive), or just have it as a gear affix. Not everything need to be in the attribute system :smiley: Of course, another way to go about this, could be to have most Proc chance bonuses in the skill nodes be tied to one of the affixes.
Like Fireball Upgrade Node:

Fireball burn chance increases from 5% to 10%
200 wisdom: Fireball burn chance increased to 15%

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Not really. Assuming that the strength attribute would give a larger damage bonus to single target in comparison to the elemental damage bonus that the int would provide, I’d say that only some sorceresses who opt for using multiple elements would choose int over strength. Otherwise, I’d see more sorceresses opting to stack both int and strength rather than solely one. Also, that would benefit the other classes who have elemental skills (like Druid and Rogue) and classes who can use elemental weapons (like barbarians assuming of course that we’ll be able to have weapons with elemental damage ofc).

Also any who want to boost their AoE. Which makes it a balance issue already. Now, if the attribute only boosts singletarget elemental, then okay, that is better.
But the main difference to me is that increasing elemental dmg would benefit basically all Sorc dmg skills. Hopefully sorc gets a few physical dmg skills, but probably cant expect much.
Unlike Singletarget boost, attack speed, damage over time, and resource cost reduction, which only really benefits some skills,
Instead of Elemental dmg, I could see an effect that boosted proc effects (and not just chance). Like more dmg or duration to procced effects on enemies; bleeds and other dots, CC procs, debuff procs, the elemental effects like freeze, burn etc. It should maybe replace the Damage over time one, since they would somewhat overlap otherwise.
Not all skills would have powerful procs, even if all skills seem to have an elemental effect, so it would at least still have some of the status of not universally boosting everything.
Although, I think this would be better fitting on gear affixes and skill nodes. If there is a proc aspect to attributes, it should just be proc chance imo. Attributes effects should probably be kept fairly simple.

Dmg types also dont seem like something that needs “help” in these games. Why should elemental dmg have a boost that physical dmg cant get. Seems like it would only increase balance issues.
Unlike the single target dmg one, where we are boosting something that needs the help, to stay relevant in endgame.
Only other area that needs help in similar ways is multi-dmg type builds. Speaking of which:

One gear affix I’d like to see is one that increases dmg, the more different dmg types you use against an enemy. As an alternative to +dmg type affixes that rules supreme in D3 for example.
That should be an obvious pick for a multi-elemental sorc. And it should of course be combined with adding resistances to monsters, so that the different dmg types actually matters.
I dont think such an affix fits as an attribute though. Too specialized. But I wouldn’t necessarily be against it either.

Yup. Remove direct power/damage gains from stats so there is no clear “main” stat.

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AoE by itself (at least not unless it also boosted damage) isn’t really that amazing to invest points in, especially in comparison to damage over time, single target damage, and/or attack speed.

If anything, I’d expect most would just put enough points to have a noticable aoe bonus and then go straight into the other three attributes. Unless they have some upgrade node that requires intellect.

Also, regarding elemental damage boosting all of the sorceress damaging skills? I mean wouldn’t the strength and dex do the same? I mean strength is more situational, as it requires a single target (which is why it’d be fine to have the elemental damage bonus to be lesser than the single target damage bonus), but even so it’s universally benefitting for all damaging skills once there’s a single target.

Either way, as of right now, the intellect aoe increase suggestion is just underwhelming in comparison to the other ones imo.

That would be the best solution imo.

Str would do nothing for any skill that can hit multiple targets (although, to clarify; I would probably call it singletarget + small frontal cleave, like max 2-3 targets, which should of course then not be affected by Int).
So lots of skills would not be affected at all by it.

Attack speed theoretically affects all skills yeah, but some skills would have very little meaningful effect; like faster cast speed on a cooldown skill. Or faster cast on a high cost skill, that simply means you cant keep attacking as much.
So it only works for some skills, and some builds.

What would you have attributes give instead though. I would like to see this too, but nearly all affixes we can come up with boosts dmg in some way. So making an attribute system with no power gains is pretty hard. Also, why even have an attribute system if it can’t boost anything?

Imo the focus should just be to make sure the boosts are not universal. That automatically means they cant be “main stats”.

Strength would automatically help any skill that hits a single target. For example if meteor hits 3 enemies, they don’t receive the single target damage bonus. But if that meteor hits a single enemy (like a boss), then it would receive a target damage bonus. As I said, it requires a single target, but either way it would benefit just about all offensive skills. That is of course unless you’re saying to have all skills categorized between single target and aoe, which I don’t know if Diablo 4 is doing (albeit it would make a different story).

I mean even if a skill has a cooldown or high resource cost, there are filler skills that a person would be able to use at high attack speed (especially if their resource generating attacks). So again, attack speed benefits all offensive skills as well.

Indirect boosts is fine. The only reason I would see direct damage bonuses to be used for attributes is if every attribute gave a direct damage boost that is useful for every class (so theoretically there’d be no main stat in that case). But it’s simply safer to not use direct damage bonuses in the first place.

The amount of targets being hit is irrelevant to what I was proposing. It is about whether the skill is a single target skill or an AoE skill.
Meteor should never receive the dmg bonus. That would just mean AoE skills could be efficient boss killers all over again.

Yeah, this, though, again, with some small/melee cleave attacks counted in the single target category.

The indirect dmg boosts can be just as dangerous as direct ones. Which ones would you have?
I’d be quite positive about not having direct dmg in attributes. Most ideas people have thrown around just add indirect dmg boosts that are effectively very direct anyway.
The ADA powers were great though. But also only 3 effects.

Also, it leaves the singletarget/AoE issue unaddressed imo. Attributes doesnt exactly have to be where it is solved, but the game needs to make sure AoE is relativley weak dmg compared to single target attacks. Attributes just seem like a good place to help with that.
Maybe it was another thread, but people talked about not allowing AoE to crit. Which would be a good start too.

Btw, in terms of what is and isnt an AoE skill; skill nodes should and could be used to change skill categories.
Like you could have a skill upgrade node for Fireball that increases its dmg, but removes the explosion => turning it from AoE to single target.
Likewise an inherent singletarget skill might have a node that turns it into an AoE. Allowing more choices on what you use as single target and AOE. Of course, it might be hard to turn a Blizzard into a single target skill, but it also doesn’t have to be available for all skills.

It benefits the filler skill. Not the high cost/cd skill. Adding a filler skill is you adjusting your build to compensate for the higher cost. Which would be great. Exactly what attack speed should be used for.
If Wis decreased resource cost (though again, dangerous), Dex and Wis would also be an obvious mix for some builds.

Moving this down, since I edited it into the previous post a bit late:

I dont see how tbh.
In Pillars of Eternity Int boosting AoE is easily one of the stronger attributes. And in A-RPGs where AoE is overpowered by default, it is hard to imagine it would be any less useful.
Not to mention, it is paired with arguably the best defensive boost; elemental resist.

That said, I’d be fine with adding a third effect to int. Should be kept small imo. And it should not increase AoE dmg in any way.
Maybe move Damage over time to Int, and add Proc Chance to Wis, as an example.

In that case, I retract my statement regarding strength. However, I doubt Diablo 4 does that. Now whether or not it does, is another topic.

Dangerous, but not as dangerous. As for which one I’d prefer, I honestly could live with either so long as every attribute can offer said damage boost that’s useful for every class.

It actually does benefit high cost. Because if you’re out of resource, you can spam a resource generator even faster to get your resource back up to fire off the high cost skill again. In short, high attack speed helps the rate of the high cost skill.

Never played the game, but from games that I have played. The only way AoE would be one of the better attributes would be if either the AoE boost is does so in ridiculous amounts and/or the screen is cluttered with monsters (which hopefully isn’t the case with Diablo 4). Or I suppose if the other stats were absolutely inferior in comparison (which isn’t the case with your suggestion).

No complaints here.

well apart from the balancing it also just doesn’t make sense that str gives a sorc higher target damage with a spell
that’s just a blemish that makes u question why even have that system? why not just have a larger passive skilltree that let’s you decide how you want to play your character and let the rest be managed through items