Its not his problem at all.
Its just Blizzards problem if they want to stick to their 6 spells formula that even simpler games like mobas offer with itemization more than that and that Blizzard wants that their playerbase to quit the game after a few months because the game doesnt offer enough replayability/freedom/customization.
You think simplicity attracts more people, thats for sure, but in the long term it becomes pretty monotone/repetitive/boring.
The majority quits the game because there is not enough depth in the game.
I don’t think people quit a game because of skill availability. As mentioned higher up on the conversation, there’s a balance between not enough and to much, both extremes are restricting variety. I’d say 6 is verging on the low end. But there’s a difference between diversity and availability. You can have a in dept skill system with a caps of 6 skills through skill customization and passive not taking room in your skill bar. Anyway…
I am amazed at how you keep trying the same thing and hoping for a different result.
Has Blizzard not learned from the failure Diablo 3 and that now really the community tells them up and down why and how you have to do it better?
There are people here who write almost manuals of convincing and easily comprehensible arguments why this and that must be and why D2 is so good because of it and why D1 had the better Atmo and the pace not so fast and Hitstun and the mobs not overloaded, no arcade mode and and…
You look at D4 and realize, Blizz is already building the next misstep again.
Why?
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Perhaps if their aim is for each class to play uniquely in a manner of speaking, maybe some classes will have access to “multiple skill bars that can be swapped on the fly” ?
Thought I saw a video where the console version actually had that feature implemented or something similar?
I might be mistaken.
Is not having a button to switch the button association a simple fix for this with no harm done? Unless of course it is a design choice pertinent to a stricter means of balance.
There is merit to this.
Yeah, I agree, there should be 7 Active Skills:
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Which MOBAs? Haven’t seen many with more than 4.
I really don’t care about longevity. As long as I’m entertained to complete the campaign and the end gsme challenges I’m interested in, I’m good and can drop the game until new content is released.
I mean, I use 11 skills with my sorc in D2. Compared to that, 7 skills feels mobile game-ish. I don’t understand, why they would limit the player so much. They still don’t get, that leaving more choices to the player is a really great part about D2 and that the game is not, what the devs plan it to be, but what the players make it. If you don’t allow room for choices, the game never becomes more, then the devs can imagine. D2 is still played, because people are given the freedom to play it the way they want to.
Well, one could argue that this is the problem with modern games. They are not „played“ and „explored“ but rather players consume the new content and go on.
I won’t argue against this statement cause it’s largely true, but, don’t see how “6 active skills at a time” is part of that problem… One could argue long CDs are a problem and agreed, in a way they ARE, but there are things people overreact to can’t help but think this is one of those things that people overreact to tbh
If you would read properly, you would have noticed that I meant WITH ITEMIZATION.
Dota2
Invoker example EVEN WITHOUT ITEMS.
Zeus example build
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Zeus/Guide
Activable spells with aghanims scepter 4 + 1 (you get another spell with aghanims shard, static field additionally transforms into activable skill)
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Zeus/Changelogs
Activable items for Zeus build:
Blink dagger → activate: jump instantly into battle or get away from battle (with double distance range of LoLs signature flash spell)
Euls Scepter → Activate: disable yourself or enemy ally into the air, removing debuffs from yourself or enemy.
Veil of Discord → activate: AoE lower res debuff in target area, +18% Extra spell damage in target area.
Bloodstone → Activate: converts 30% of your mana into life on activation
Ghost Scepter → activate: transforms yourself into etherial form, taking extra magical damage but being invulnerable to physical attacks for 4 seconds.
Etherial Blade-> upgrade from ghost scepter, Activate: remains same as Ghost scepter, plus with the addition that you can activate/throw a debuff into the enemy for etherial form, increasing magical damage on foe and foe being unable to attack or be attacked by physical attacks.
Refresher Orb: activate: refreshes ALL COOLDOWNS of ALL SPELLS FROM ITEMS AND YOUR HERO except Orb Refresher’s cooldown
Scythe of Vyse: activate: disables enemy for 3 seconds, in those 3 seconds enemy cannot attack or do anything
Shivas Guard: activate: summons a freeze nova (similar to freeze nova of sorc) dealing cold damage and slow enemies.
Need more examples?
And lets not forget Neutral items that drop from jungle that some also have an activation spell on them.
I dont play LoL anymore, but this hero transforms and gains more spells, if you count in activable items in LoL as well, its more than 7 spells:
https://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en-pl/champions/elise/
Do not forget the default 2 selectable summoner spells for any champion like flash, ignate, heal, barrier, exhaust or teleport.
People quit the game because there is not enough depth compared to the item/skill build builds that i showed above.
Dota is a free game and offers more customization, item builds with activation of extra spells compared to D3.
Even Grim Dawn comes in par with Dota2.
Tbf, very few people can play Invoker well, and it is very difficult to utilize his potential.
Another example would be meepo, where you’re controlling upwards to 5 of him simultaneously.
I think that having the option to attempt to utilize this complexity is great, but it certainly wouldn’t be that appealing to the vast majority should it be the standard norm.
Some people simply want to be the best at clickiing and only having to click. Not that I promote the encouraging of laziness, but hey, I don’t particularly fancy playing single player games alone either. I stopped playing single player games with Half Life.
Helping the player figure out what is the optimal way to click also exacerbates this problem just as soon as the typical new player advances to ‘novice’ which let’s be honest here, doesn’t take very long to figure out.
The more depth the more potentially competitive the more likely cheats will be available.
I stop playing games because they’re boring, and other games offer greater appeal. Too shallow or too much depth and you’ve achieved the same outcome.
We can agree that abilities that require you to aim add more depth than abilities that simply activate and are as effective as abilities that can be missed and are therefore more effective than said abilities?
I can understand some people want more buttons. You “should” be able to either use passive skills or have 8-10 buttons to press. But as an HackNSlash game, it’s not common to have more buttons
Been playing games since 1978. I’ve always looked at them as consumable goods if you will. A few have kept me playing for a long time. For the most part I buy a game to be entertained. Once I’m done being entertained I’m done with it regardless of if I have beaten it or have stuff left to do.
This isn’t a modern mindset.
Well, that is not modern, you are right. I would rather say, it is healthy to not play the game anymore, if you are not entertained anymore.
The modern aspect I was referring to, was, that most modern games only keep being entertaining because of new content flowing in at a ridiculous rate. I suppose, this is pure marketing strategy, because most of this content is either advertisement for the studio, or it directly gives moneyyy.
Back in the 90’s, games did not have great support after release and still, some were played a long time by many players. D2 and WC3 ofc are extraordinary examples, but also stuff like Tekken 3, Tetris, Super Mario World, Legend of Zelda, … achieved the same, even though there were 100s of newer games around 2000. And these games all share, that there is a rather high skill cap and replayability is huge.
And that’s the biggest difference for me between D2 and D3. D2 has longevity, because you have a high skill cap and great replayability.
D3 is super easy, until exaggerated scaling kicks in. That means, you can’t beat the game with mechanics, but you have to scale your char equally with gear. That’s pure grind. And I can’t think of a reason to play the same class twice in D3.
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…I am stunned at your statement. Truly unbelievable you think less is more and increases diversity lol. Amazing I want to point out the problem with your logic but the unbridled obviousness of why your statement is false speaks for its self.
Being able to choose a lot at once does not bring diversity. It results only in people picking only the most optimal options.
When you have a lot of options but limited choices, you have to weigh your options more carefully, make choices based on your own preferences and how they work together.
This is the very same reason I was against keeping the 4th Kanai’s Cube slot. Did it bring any added diversity? No, it brought none. All it did was more power creep, builds remained pretty much identical.
There’s a balance point between the number of options and the number of choices one can make. What that balance point is depends on many things but “only 6 skills” is not really limiting.
What if there was a skill combo mechanic? With 6 skills there’s 15 different 2-skill combos. Is that still a limiting factor?
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It is a fact though.
If a class in Diablo have 30 skills, and you can choose to get all those skills (and even max their power), sure, you are “choosing” lots of skills there… but you have zero diversity since there is now exactly 1 build in the game.
This is not true either, because you can create a build with itemization, just like you can create a WW asassin with Chaos or a Werebear enchantress sorceress.
Selecting 6 spells from 30 skills isnt creating a build though, its just a pure limitation to combat possibilities, enhacing repetitiveness.
Fair enough, but we are talking skills here. There would be exactly 1 skill build.
We can disagree on how good it is (I think 6 skills is too low), but picking 6 skills definitely fits the definition of creating a build.
Not even WoW is anything like it used to be. I loved playing the old druid but all the skills you had to use to be a “good druid” made the class a pain in the butt to play. 6 skills would have worked just fine for me back then.