[D4] 2nd question about Rathma vs Lilith

Next Question: If Rathma is still alive and he went head-to-head with his Mother who would win?

  • Both are at full straight and have all of their powers and abilities to use.

I know Rathma did not care for his Mother Lilith, how did he feel about his Father Inarius?

If one stays true to the typical myth trope, the son/offspring is nearly always more powerful and if not, one of the parents sacrifices themselves to defeat the other.

That is dang near universal.

So, I’d hope Diablo devs do something unexpected and have Rathma nothing more than a punk pretender in comparison.

1 Like

An interesting thought for the Diablo - lore and world, if it works in such a way that the descendants always compete for power against their parents, who usually have less power as single parts, than their brood.

That would make a quite interesting narrative style possible, where one wants to prevent power also and not necessarily promote in the own rows of the “evil”, in order to keep even the control.
See there good story moments and background stories as a possibility.

The rest I like to leave to the people who are good at it.
I have a lot of experience in the field of RPGs and am excellent in many things like character classes, building and how the world should work, but I’m a bad storyteller :wink:

Here’s the deal, open up Netflix and pickup any Batman versus Superman movie or saturday morning cartoon, here be your answer. :popcorn:

Well he was in the first generation of nephalems, in his full power, feard by angels and demons alike, wisited by an actual dragon, who told some secrets about, the power of blood, life force and the balance between life and death. So yeah, i think Rathma could wipe the floor whit Lilith.

3 Likes

Considering the first irm were more powerful than their parents I’m sure if killing Lilith meant preserving balance, Rathma would destroy Lilith easily.

Except this isn’t necessarily true. Especially in regards to Rathma. He only cares about protecting the balance. He isn’t motivated by power or superseding is parents.

They just had the potential to be more powerfull and some of them maybe was. But if they had really been that more powerful, they could not have been murdered by the renegade angels/demons. But they was murdered, so the angels/demons was at that time stronger. And that was even at a time when Inarius hadn’t yet reduced the powers of the nephalem…

If he can do it easy, than why didn’t he already did it in the sinwar?

But on the other hand i agree with u. Normaly the ancients nephalem was or could be stronger as their parents. So Rathma will win vs Lilith in an 1vs1.

But as already bet by Inarius vs Lilith thread, i say by Rathma vs. Lilith:
Rathma is stronger but Lilith is more dangerous. Her might is not just physical, her might is much more to use other beeings to work for her. So she didn’t have to fight vs Rathma head by head in a 1vs1 because she more or less easily could manipulate a strong Nephalem like Uldyssian to defeat Rathma in place of her. And so she still can win vs Rathma. And vs all others too. She just need other to fall in love to her - blessed mother.

She was trying to end the eternal conflict and being eternal peace to Sanctuary. He is ot really at odds with her or his father unless they are actively disrupting the balance. Even then he prefers to work behind the scenes.

Of his two parents, only one is/was a threat and he guided Uldyssian and his brother inhouse they would stop Inarius, which they did and restored balance. Lilith wants to protect Sanctuary. So unless her ways threaten it and the balance he really has no beef with her, even during the sin war.

I’m still telling you Lilith being the bug bad is a red herring.

By using her offspring to destroy Heaven and Hell? She does not appear to be a loving Mother as much as a clever manipulator.

2 Likes

Agree.

Lilith is Mephistos daugther, so don’t think she wouldn’t manipulate all of us (include me and u too). Inarius was her prisoner, but she saws an advantage to ,fell in love’’ with Inarius (later she saw the advantage to ,fell in love’’ with Uldyssian too - like a gold digger). In Sanctuary than she builded her own army of Nephalems to be able to fight against all (against her father and his brothers; against heaven, and all other enemies and be the one&only Queen and Mastress of all) to dominate. Nephalems was the strongest weapons ever.

That she never talks the truth with one about it, is owed to the thing.
Fleeing from the war, protect the children and a love story with an angel sounds much more trusting. So she had more time to realize it. Not for free she is called as the master of manipulation. But at the end the other fleeings from the Great Conflict to Sanctuary looked through their plans and started to destroy Liliths (childs) weapons.

So she was freaked out, showed her real face and killed everyone.

Not exactly. The ancient Nephalem (1st generations) **were indeed stronger than the renegade angels and demons, hence why they feared them.

Taken from the Book of Cain:

"I feel compelld to state for the sake of clarity that thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands, of ancients doubtlessly existed during this time. It is possible or even likely that they possessed abilities beyond our understanding.

Who’s to say what tales of these demigods have been lost over time?

The powers of the ancients had an unexpected effect on their otherworldly parents. The renegade angels and demons began to see that their nephalem children were far more powerful than they. This, for obvious reasons, raised concern amongst them that the nephalem might not only become a threat but also draw the attention of the Heavens and Hells from which they hid."

Also, none of the renegade angels or demons had killed them (although they were discussing whether to take such action), because Inarius had called for a period of reflection, in which the renegade angels and demons would spend in solitude. It was during this time that Lilith had killed most of the renegade angels and demons, and those that weren’t killed by her, fled back to their respective realms of Heaven and Hell.

As for the thread itself, it’s hard to say since I don’t know much regarding Lilith’s or Rathma’s fighting capabilities or their feats in battle. But if we’re to go by the ancient Nephalems being stronger then their parents, then Rathma would have a better chance at winning.

The end justify the means. Rathma is the same way, hence is non interference in D3.

She only really cares about Sanctuary and probably Rathma. Yes we are all her Children but there can always be more. She only needed 1 to do the job and only a relative few died. Nothing like what Malthael did.

Well considering the angel of death killed 90% of the population in RoS the balance appears to be off.

  • If Rathma is still alive could he have done something to stop the genocide?

Hence the reason Lilith was brought back. Rathma either couldn’t correct himself or needed Lilith back to do so and it took decades to realize or find a way to free her.

The Triune freed her not Rathma.

“we have these ancient Triune Cult ruins that radiate this dark power — sort of thrumming with dark energy; the triune who is responsible for helping Lilith return to Sanctuary, as you saw in our cinematic, they also worship the Prime Evils; and they are hastening their master’s return to Sanctuary.”

  • Harrison Pink, Blizzcon 2019, World and Lore panel.

True, Cain wrote this. But he also wrote:

Tought the following tale strains credibility
[…]
As I have said before, untangling myth from history is a trick business.

The infos in the Book of Cain vary to the research results from my clan/order.
They direct the focus to this [it’s written in the Book of Cain too]:

Because of this, conflict arose, as many of the renegades held the opinion that their nephalem offspring should be destroyed, while others believed their children should be spared. This dissension troubled Inarius, who called for a period of reflection. And so his followers agreed to consider …

>His< followers can be a difference to all of the renegades (they was renegades once before). And speculations about Mavericks are allowed too.

But my order scholars corrected me in one point. u are right with it
:point_down:

While it doesn’t proof that they wasn’t hunting Liliths childs. Maybe they grouped up and ganked them 5vs1. So they could beat and killed the stronger ancient nephalems too.

Keep in mind that most of which that Cain has written is accurate in Diablo lore.

Also, it was pretty much confirmed by Rathma in the sin wars that the renegade angels and demons did indeed seclude themselves to reflect and that they were killed by Lilith before they could reach a dicision to spare or kill the Nephalem:

"In the beginning, the new children had seemed harmless enough, but when they had started to manifest powers, powers unlike those of their parents and with unlimited potential, the angel Inarius, leader of the group, had declared them abominations. Only barely had he been convinced by a few of his fellows not to act instantly. He and the other refugees finally had agreed to retire to their separate sanctums carefully to consider the fate of their children.

But among them was one who had already made her decision. Inarius’s own lover, the demon Lilith, secretly stalked the other demons and angels, slaugthering them one by one. In her madness and ambition, she saw herself as the saviour of the children and also, thus, the only one with the right to mold their destiny."

I doubt it, since the renegade angels and demons chose to obey Inarius and stay secluded, which easiliy allowed for Lilith to slay them as they were by themselves. Also, it’s implied that Inarius was the one who killed some of the ancient Nephalems who didn’t conceal their powers (or at least indirectly caused their deaths). For example:

"However, she had dealy underestimated Inarius. Discoverying her treachery, he cast her out of Sanctuary. Then, using the gigantic crystal called the Worldstone, which had been created to keep Sanctuary hidden, he had altered the artifact so that it caused the innate powers of the children to decline until they became so dormant as never to have existed.

Some of Rathma’s generation, called the Nephalem had protested… and they had been crushed. The rest had scattered, Rathma himself forced to hide beyond the mortal plane. Over the centuries, most of this kind had vanished, and the generations that followed grew up in ignorance of the birthright that had been stolen from them."

Or:

"The blade flared brightly, startling Achilios so much that he stumbled back. The light spread around Mendeln… and in it’s illumination,
Achilios saw ghosts.

These were not merely the specters of dead edyrem or servants of the Prophet, though. Their beauty, their perfection, was extraordinary. Human they looked for the most part, but human in the very same way that Rathma was.

They could only be the children of those who had founded Sanctuary… the first nephalem.

It was only where the light of the dagger shown that he could see them, yet there was just enough to hint that their numbers were greater yet. Achilios understood why they were present. These were those who had perished long ago fighting for the world upon which they had been born, the ones who had first sacrificed themselves for the survival of all their kind and later for the humans descended from them."

These imply the ancient Nephalem (1st generation like Rathma) died in battle and/or were killed, and also that it was likely Inarius’s doing (which was also confirmed by Rathma), as it was after he attuned the Worldstone to make future generations weaker.

1 Like

Right, and the encoded video originally said Rathma. There could be a reason, if it is him, he could be working with them. Maybe he knows she is needed but they are the only ones with the ability to summon her. Or quite possible it is a Demon posing as him knowing she may ot have been receptive to demons/Triune alone bringing her back.