D2, D3, D4 - Depth vs Replayability misconceptions

General Discussion
21

You mean that when you pick certain talents your other skills passively change. That’s true, this is a level of interactivity, but it’s not the point I was making. In the end, you have a bunch of different skills that have passive effects (slightly different based on your talents), but they do not interact with each other.

It is TALENTS that are interacting. Not skills. Basically, each talent simply has active and passive component and that’s it.

Diablo 2 has 32 sets (including LOD).

Diablo 3 has 35 class-specific sets (6 items and more), a bunch of 2-3 items sets, and also a bunch of craftable/Non-class sets.

I will not count legendaries, because there’re hundreds in Diablo 3 at this point.

So yeah, I don’t see how D2 has more sets than D3.

I agree with that.
But that nostalgia is based on SOMETHING. And that something is - back in the day, Diablo 2 was King and (un)Holy Grail of gaming. Again, IN RELATION to other games of that time.

But D3 was never that.
So D3 never created the same kind rapport with people.

No it wasn’t innovative. It was almost the exact carbon-copy of D2 in many ways with new graphics and fancier talent trees.

The reason it’s so popular is because they give more new content, more diversity, and also because you can trade with real money there.

It also was, unlike D3, not completely broken and unplayable on release because someone decided to “double it” (c).

You are talking about a WHOLE other kind of depth here. Not game design depth, but lore/presentation/story depth.

People still play Tetris. Does it have more depth than D2 because it came out earlier and people also “play it to this day”, but longer?

The fact that someone still plays it has nothing to do with objective qualities.

Ah. I see. Moving along now.
I’m not even going to bother with someone who is all emotions and zero arguments.

You’re a zealot, my friend.

Yes, D3V sucked hard.
I am speaking about ROS though, about the current state of the game because THAT is what we will be comparing D4 to. Not the poor child of Jay Wilson’s mistakes.

Anything creates corpses as resource. It’s not a skill-specific interaction. It is a skill, literally, using corpses obtained through any means.

All of these skills are not interacting with each other. They are interacting with DEAD ENEMIES that can be created through whatever means. You don’t NEED to use “Confuse” or “Corpse explosion” to create corpses. You can use other stuff. And your skills will still work.
This is not inter-skill interaction - it’s Necromancer benefitting from killing enemies fast.

I did, for many years. But again, the things you mention - are not interactions.

It adds meaning through other passives, skills, sets and items that make it benefit from certain types of damage. Depth is added there. For example frost hydra slowing enemies which makes you deal more damage to slowed foes through passive.
Runes without any complementing items - add variety, not depth. I never claimed otherwise.

There is the same level of loot hunt as was in D2.
Only, yes, you get a variety of different settings and enemies instead of killing one monster that can absolutely not hurt you for 3000 times.

And guess what? The same happens in D3.
Only difference is - Baal never gets harder, so you basically gain nothing by farming it. If you can already kill it - the only thing you can strive for is to kill it faster and faster.
In D3 you can raise rift level and always face new challenge, and actually SEE the items you’ve farmed so long for working.
In D2, there’s no purpose in loot when you’re already beating the toughest challenge of the game with closed eyes.

It is MORE challenging that no power creep and Baal who can’t do anything to you and is just a glorified loot chest after certain point. A loot chest that you insist on opening to “improve” your character for whatever reason.

The absolute TRUTH has been spoken.
I can’t argue against that level of finality. You’ve won. I’m taking my hat off to you.

2 Likes
22

Much of that new content is innovative (in the context of A-RPGs of course, which is the topic here).
The skill gems are quite innovative (even if it is ultimately a bad system imo). Map system likewise.

Later stuff like the Delve, Delirium, Incursion etc. leagues are a fair bit above the diversity and innovation you see in content from other A-RPGs.

Whether that is part of what makes it popular is not particularly important. The question was if it was possible to be as innovate in A-RPGs as Diablo 2 was. And PoE shows that it is.
So does Last Epoch, Grim Dawn etc.

The lack of depth D4 seems to have is only about Blizzards willingness to do things, not whether it is possible.

2 Likes
23

That would be such a shame. All the best A-RPGs have respec limitations tbh. Only D3 does not, and the game suffers tremendously for it.
Both in depth, replayability, build diversity and balance.
One of the most important things Blizzard can do for D4 tbh is to add a significant respec cost/cooldown.

It is both. Since AoE, projectiles etc. (hopefully) interacts differently with enemies. Which one you use matters.
Just like fire dmg, cold dmg etc. is depth, if enemies have resistances. Otherwise, not so much.

3 Likes
24

i agree

i agree

i don’t like complexity but i like D3, so i tend to disagree.

but here i agree.

PC is the reason, sadly. Diablo looked to be an exception on PC, long ago.

i agree

again, i agree.

good post.

1 Like
25

I’d argue it’s always possible to innovate in any genre of game. If those innovations are going to be popular or liked are a different story, but it’s always possible to go against the common practices and do something new.

Though the best games are generally ones that do something different rather than just rehashing old ideas that have already been done.

We saw it with WoW, it got huge by doing something MMOs hadn’t done before: It catered to a more casual playerbase. All the clones that came after it that tried to replace WoW by being exactly like it and beating it at its own game ultimately failed, because we already had WoW.

26

Indeed.

I dont think D4 needs to innovate to be great. If D4 steals from the best in the genre, it can be great. But innovation certainly makes things more interesting.

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27

It’s true that it may be called innovative.

But such innovation will never make a leap to a point of “OMFG, a new game genre is born!!!” which happened with Diablo 2.
Even if you get a good game with lots of cool and exciting features - that excitement will never reach a point of first discovering Diablo 2 back in the day and realizing that it’s something you’ve never seen before.

That’s what I’m talking about.

Sure D4 can bring innovation. But it’s near impossible to have enough of that stuff to reproduce the cultural shock and subsequend hype and excitement that D2 caused back in the day.

28

Seems like D1 was the game that created the genre.
D2 just build on it.

Shouldn’t be needed either. People hoping for an A-RPG would be quite disappointed if Blizzard made a new genre with D4 :smiley: Just focus on what might make a good A-RPG (whatever that is for people).

As for D3, as you say, D3 vanilla was quite bad in many ways, while D3 RoS might be slightly less bad. Though mostly just bad in different ways. But D3 releasing as a fairly bad game seems like more of a reason than anything. Games rarely get second chances to redeem themselves after launch. And even though RoS changes some things (much of it for the better), it is hard to make fundamental changes after launch.

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29

Well if RoS’s new-character-experience doesn’t mirror my complaints with D3V’s 1:1 I would be surprised. Unless it’s just way faster.

30

that topic again? :frowning:

31

Once again you are completely wrong, as I mentioned that the reasons that caused good emotions in people was the quality of the game, the use of technology masterfully, and not what they did with Diablo 3.

Tétris has quality within its style of play, so people still play, just like chess.

Diablo has technical quality within its style of play, and it is this quality that gives players pleasure, so people still play, unlike Diablo 3, which only keeps players online to get cosmetics, not for the pleasure of playing.

Judging by your aggression, offense and lack of argument, I think you had no way of contesting me.

Okay, it’s life. :wink:

4 Likes
32

Few gameplay variations? I think it’s obvious that PoE has much more gameplay variety.

For endgame in PoE, the primary system is mapping - where you can not only tune your map but create different builds depending on how you want to map (i.e. magic farm builds for certain map types versus pushing shaper or guardians or elder). But it’s not limited to just the atlas… you can also choose to do labyrinth runs, or Atziri, or Delves (cave exploration), or pursuing completing the league systems. It has more gameplay varieties you can pursue as well, but I’m not convinced they all work as well as the ones I mentioned, so I won’t list them.

Not to mention it has a much more robust itemization and crafting system as well.

What do you have in D3 for gameplay? Rifts. That is really pretty much it to endgame. Nobody seems to run adventures for that. There is some variety in leveling up your gems and using the cube, but it feels so cookie cutter.

Hopefully this helps to make it clear that there really is a lot more variety in PoE.

3 Likes
33

I find it more indicative of how shallow these games actually tend to be from the gameplay perspective. Generally speaking, all you really do is get to a high level/cap and then… repeat stuff, some games more than others.

  • Calls into question the leveling process itself and if it might be too fast or not fulfilling.
  • It often reflects poor economic planning with regards to MUDflation and/or the influence of RMT.
  • The temporary delay on repeating the same old content as you level/re-gear serves more as an anti-burnout mechanism, but can also backfire when you find out your new experiment is garbage.
  • Has become an excuse to minimize and/or delay the release of permanent content for all modes.
  • Stalls patch cycles for the sake of seasonal integrity unless you happen to see a bug that egregiously benefits the player.
  • Fools some players into thinking they can be competitive with bots/no-lifers/cheaters.
  • Eventually marginalizes the effort of the player as their characters get dismissed to the non-season and the cycle of blah repeats.
  • Metas do their part in damaging longevity by pushing for optimization of gains in the shortest period possible, leaving a wide variety builds out in the cold. Solo or Multiplayer doesn’t really matter here. If you’re too slow, you’re eventually back to the non-season bin, anyway.

Now, I’m one that isn’t afraid to liken ARPGs to MMOs, even though that very implication tends to trigger the gag reflex of those that think D3 is just a WoW clone. In truth, the concept of “seasons” tend to exist in MMOs in a different way, and that’s via patch or expansion cycles, where you then get new gear treadmills or softer resets via level cap increases. Very rarely does a character become outright useless, despite the drama queen b*tch fits you might see from raiders over how new quest gear competes with stuff they spent months trying to get.

However, there is another underlying message in all of this: You’re not supposed to do the same things forever and hope that somehow stays fresh. Some folks think PvP is the solution to this, but it’s not everyone’s cup of tea between matchmaking systems being often questionable and the performance gaps between PUGs and pre-mades (using voice chat). I’m just going to assert that both genres have been predominantly PvE games even if some rabid PvPers may think otherwise. ARPGs otherwise need the added distinction of being solo-friendly games first before any other facets can be built on top (which supplements why forcing D3 into online only was more of a power grab on Blizzard’s part than a needed step in gaming, but that’s another topic).

Now, you also know I’m big making crafting mean more in ARPGs, and not just in the RNG-and-pray sense. If a game took more of an MMO approach of tiering content until an expansion-wide reset, you can frequently release new zones/activities to distract players until the next set without forcing them back to zero. True, some folks might try to cut corners here, but in the end, that’s no real different than D2’s rushes or getting PLed in T6 games here in D3. The likely source of this is that some aspect of the repetitive process is not being favored. Nonetheless, going 60-70 will be preferred over 1-70, or whatever combination of level differences exist per game. There’s still some value in past effort. The respec argument is something we’ve otherwise done to death, where the effort of getting gear for other builds is still a thing and that being stingy about the process truly does hinder experimentation and theorycrafting, while everyone not willing to partake still has that option to start fresh every time. Nonetheless, like forcing seasons on players, there’s still that “everyone else must share in my suffering!” that goes on instead of just enjoying the game at your own pace.

34

Yes. By that I don’t mean the systems/modes/leagues. I mean the gameplay/action/combat you execute with your character. It’s nearly the same no matter your build. And that’s because PoE engine is bad. It’s on the level of D2, which is a 20 year old game.

D4 engine isn’t optimal - you can’t interact with the environment (break walls for example) - but it’s still way ahead of what D2/PoE are. And since for me the action/gameplay is of top priority (otherwise I would just play a classic RPG), I am looking forward at D4.

35

And how exactly does it suffer for it? There is nothing preventing you starting a new character to play a different build. No need to punish everyone so you can do something that you already can.

1 Like
36

Even if you can make your own imaginary restrictions, it still changes the gameplay.
Just like if you started the game with a stash full of perfect items, it would change the game, no matter how much we could tell ourselves that it is optional to open the stash.
Just like set items and legendaries in D3 changes the game. Pretending they do not exist does not solve anything.

It is not about punishing anyone. It is about creating a better game for everyone.
I dont buy the idea that restrictions are bad for games. They are the foundation of games.

The game suffers by making build decisions meaningless (thus no depth). It narrows which builds are viable to use (just respec to perfection for whatever content you are doing - another reduction of depth). It throws out the gameplay of leveling characters (outside the silly season resets)

5 Likes
37

Ah, I see. I can agree with that.

I’ve always thought that D3 had better actual action game play mechanics as well… it just felt more tactical. D4 seems like it may improve a bit more along those lines with their new dodge mechanic too, making the evasion mechanics feel a bit more natural. Hopefully they can incorporate that into interesting fights, it will be neat to see how that turns out!

I am just hopeful that they add some variety to the game, because it felt repetitive after awhile to me, and the builds felt lacking to me. If they have a better itemization and variety of end game systems, which it looks like the dungeon keys may be aiming to do a bit (maybe with interesting boss fights or something) D4 could turn out really well I think.

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38

I would certainly agree that combat in PoE is not particularly impressive. Combat flow is one area where D3 rules supreme (arguably the only area). Although actual combat in D3 is pretty bad these days due to power creep and weird meta.

Still, those systems in PoE is what makes that game. The passive tree, the map system, tthe nearly endless secondary systems that have been added over time, the crafting etc. I dont like all of them, but they certainly have depth.
If D4 could get just half of the systems depth PoE has, and half the end-game depth combined with a good combat system that is not destroyed by power creep and mindless press one button gameplay, with binary “either you are at 100% HP or you are dead”, then we could have a winner in D4.
Then add half the itemization depth of Grim Dawn, and we might have a master piece.

Throw in some respec costs and death penalty (or survival bonus if that sounds better…).

1 Like
39

PoE has the same problem
its probably even worse
all arpgs are too fast paced right now for some weird reason
probably power creep
or 9 year olds

40

Sure, I was not saying PoE did it better. Quite the contrary. Was just to clarify they should take D3 combat… with some heavy balance modifications.

For everything else though, all the character building stuff, the game systems, the itemization, I would look at PoE, Grim Dawn, Last Epoch long before looking at either Diablo 2 or Diablo 3.

D1 shows the way for atmosphere. D2 might show the way with lore, world building etc. That is probably about it.

1 Like