Fighting for balance is to increase the options of what I would want to play, if balance wasn’t an issue, then why did barbarians fight for the buffs to the class for so long?
That’s called fighting for balance.
Gaining power can be fun, and I get that many wouldn’t want to give that up when they had it for a while, but it’s all a perpetual cycle of buffing where someone is always gonna get shafted.
Now, after several years of not nerfing much, they do it every patch, this is blizzard change in policy to finally getting those outliners down to a reasonable level.
And this is coming from a crusader main which had two outliners (condemn and heaven’s fury) over the years, I know how overpowered they were, and how it completly made all other builds irrelevant at the time. Heaven’s fury had several nerfs to this date and now it’s finally looking like it’s in a decent spot.
And also, let’s not kid ourselves, the GoD dh will most likely be nerfed, it is stronger than it should, and given the way they have acted on other builds being at that level, this one will not be any different. What we can hope for is that this “overpower” is from weird interactions with certain items and skills/affixes, and that is fixed while still retaining the the current power. But eventually, something will happen, whether we like it or not.
On this we definitely agree. How we approach community advocacy matters, though, and this is why I recommend always advocating for buffs, not nerfs, even if something is OP. This puts fun and player engagement front and center, and communicates more clearly that we want to feel powerful with our favorite builds regardless of class or build preference.
Ideally, I’d like to see better parity among class builds, because we’re remarkably close to excellent cross-class parity.
We have gotten closer to the point of cross-class balance, because Blizzard opted to nerf and buff. If it weren’t for nerfs, all classes would be way behind crusaders with their infinite shield of fury stacking.
P.S. Wizard and monks now are the two weakest classes that desperately need buffs.
I agree.
I and others advocate for both buffs to weak classes and nerfs to OP builds. You and I differ on this personal opinion.
If one only buffs, then we get into a situation where group play becomes increasingly trivialized. To illustrate this, the 4 player leaderboard in EU, one would need to complete a GR 150 in less than 10 minutes and 8 seconds. I am pleased that you now have stated that we are “remarkably close to excellent cross-class balance” due to Blizzard using both nerfs and buffs like I have advocated.
But then, you have to agree to nerfs if that is gonna happen, there are no ifs or buts.
Calling out on people when they mention that something is overpowered is the same as calling out someone saying something is underpowered. The end result is balance. Whether or not that nerf or buff is warrented is up to Blizzard to decide.
Also since we are the “fun police” let me explain what I find fun. I find it fun when I sit by the comp and choose the build I want, do some rifts, and feel that the build is at an fairly equal level to the next build. The approach can ofcourse be to increase all the builds power, or you can have a more practical view and buff and nerf to find that sweet spot.
It’s never an act to destroy builds, but rather to not have that cycle of powercreep, that cycle is the reason why so many builds has been out of the loop since they constantly need to fix the top end.
What we can hope for is a couple of major balance patches to smooth things out, but that would not have happened with the mindset of never nerfing.
At what point does this end? Getting overpowered like this will eventually make it to where you login to a season and complete a GRift 150 in the first week. Then you just logoff because you don’t have anything else to strive for. What you want is essential cheat codes enabled. That ruins the fun.
This is an ARPG. I want to actually feel progress over time. Not just complete a set and clear GRift 150 instantly. If things are over buffed they need to be reduced. We no longer have crawling through difficulties. You get your set and supporting legendaries and boom! You just cleared a T16 rift.
This game/genre needs a lot less difficulties where you have to find gear in current difficulties to progress to the next one.
Even though we have like 20 base difficulties there are really only 4 or 5 different parts. Everything else is useless.
For you, maybe. But I suspect a lot of folks only play Season to get the stuff, hit a PR, and peace out until the next go-around. Personally, I never play Seasons because I find the whole grind, however truncated it is these days, repulsively boring. Which is generally how I find D3 these days: boring.
And it’s not power creep that made it boring. It’s the fact that it’s 8 years old and we’ve been doing the same things in more or less the same manner for most of that time. I’ve checked my list: Rank 1 in groups? Check. Personal bests with low-Paragon runs? Check. Solo Self-Found? Check.
Mind you, I’m not advocating for every build to plow GR 150 with ease. That’s always been a mischaracterization used by the Fun Police to suggest that I and others who share my views don’t consider balance to be meaningful. I–we–do, but we’re not defining balance the way you define it, and much of that has to do with the fact that I don’t think balance is nearly as important as fun.
If a build is OP for a season or two? Who cares? Go have fun. It’s not the end of the world. Blizzard will eventually bring it line–or they won’t. Either way, if the builds I enjoy feel powerful, capable, and competitive–if I can engage similar content with similar efficiency and a sense of power–I’m having fun. Zodiac Rend is, to me, the epitome of a well-balanced, incredibly fun build: it’s fast, versatile, and one of the best solo builds out there. It may not be good in multiplayer, but what it lacks there it more than makes up for in solo play; it requires some skill, but it’s still accessible if you don’t want to fully optimize the build or manually input Rends. It’s powerful, but you aren’t going to plow the max GR with 1k Paragon.
Frankly, I’d love to see all builds balanced against Zodiac Rend, but if they decide that a Sader build, a WD build, or a DH build is the better high water mark, so be it. I just don’t want to see the builds I love–the builds that everyone else loves–get nerfed into the ground because some folks think some numerical approximation of balance is more important.
Then you’re playing the wrong game. This is not a grind-heavy ARPG like D2 or POE is. This is clearly a casual ARPG-lite, one that seeks to offer you a lot of power upfront, and one in which the only meaningful test of that power is a timed challenge that weighs RNG-dependent game environments against your willingness to quit and remake to find the perfect soft rift.
See what I’m saying?
That game you want D3 to be is not what D3 is. I feel like you’d be happier playing POE for the same reasons I’m happier playing Doom Eternal.
This is wrong. I actually hate PoE for a few reasons. D3 used to be the game that I wanted and it’s still the closest to what I like as well as it’s an awesome game in general. It’s just changed in the past couple of years because people like you keep going “Buff, buff, buff! - No nerf, just buff!” It’s like all you want is similar to “Tehehe, boss go boom!”
I, and others like me, want actual true balance between all classes and all sets where anyone can pick the build they want to compete while still having room for improvement. Your philosophy conflicts with itself
Everyone else that’s not that build. You can’t have balance with OP builds.
That last part, competitive, can’t exist between classes when there is an outlier.
Well, you seem to portray yourself as an advocate for only buffs, and you seem to take an aggressive stance every time someone barely mentions the word nerf, so I find it hard to believe that you actually want any balance at all. Tbh if whirlrend wasn’t the strongest barb build, and another overpowered barb build exists that hits 150, would you be claiming the same? Even if whirlrend is strong, few will play it because it’s still weaker than the very best.
But they aren’t nerfed to the ground unless they had some bad mechanics like necro for instance. They are aiming for a power similar to that of the whirlrend, and that is still what people asking for when concerning GoD, or atleast stamp out some weird interactions with different items.
To be fair, you seem to be quite passionate about this, far more than what you should be if the game isn’t your interest at this point.
That’s cool. I don’t care for POE either. Feels too complicated to me, too many mats, too many elements and resistances and . . . just thinking about it gives me a headache. So, yeah, I feel ya there.
Hate to break this to you but I don’t direct the course of this game. I’m not a developer. My influence stems from the work I’ve done in the community, which is my primary focus when it comes to all things D3-related. And if you go back and re-read our original Barb Buff Proposal, you might be shocked to learn that all we ever asked for was:
Stronger builds across the board
Updated supporting legendaries
Fixes to broken sets
Better intra-class balance
Better cross-class balance
And that was it. At the time, we didn’t even ask for Barbs to be as powerful as Wizards (then the most powerful class by a mile). We just wanted to be in the same ballpark and for our builds to be rewarding and powerful. And that’s still my MO, and why I say a lot of folks don’t really understand what “Buffs, not nerfs!” actually means.
It means a sustained community effort to advocate for the following:
Buffs to favorite builds/classes via sets/supporting legendaries
Better intra-class parity
Better cross-class parity
More diverse options for group play
So, why do I advocate against nerfs? Simple. Asking for Blizzard to nerf a build or class someone else enjoys doesn’t make my experience better, and it doesn’t necessarily promote better intra- or cross-class parity; if the bar for balance was X, and now it’s Y, it’s useless to ask that we return to Y. When we asked for buffs, we had a broken Wastes set (Rend was useless), outdated supporting legendaries, and our two top builds relied on gimmicky wall-charging with the Raekor set (especially R6 HOTA, which was stronger than our default HOTA build by a mile!). Our class was an absolute mess. It got better after our buffs, but there’s still work to be done in getting other builds, particularly Fire EQ, Pro Slam, H90, and IK HOTA closer to Rend in terms of power.
That’s what “Buffs, not nerfs!” means: Ask for improvements for yourself, not nerfs that may make the experience of others–particularly those with less time to play, less Paragon, or disabilities–more frustrating, more time-consuming, and less fun.
Outside of vanilla (and, arguably, early RoS), D3 was not and is not a grind-heavy, inch-by-inch, upgrade-by-upgrade crawl like the ARPGS of yore. You’re never, ever going to return to a time where Paragon 5k struggles to clear GR 120 (or GR130 for that matter). That time is gone, and that was inevitable due to the design of the game: damage is modified via multipliers, and the only way to deal more damage other than increasing item multipliers is Paragon.
D3 is a very linear game. It always was. We just didn’t have the multipliers to see it so clearly.
But asking for nerfs isn’t going to change that, and what’s more, it ignores the reality of the game.
The reality is this: GR 150 is doable for several classes solo, but this is not the norm for any class or any large body of players. Very, very few players have the gear, gem levels, skill, and time to accomplish this. If they do, groovy. They earned it (provided they didn’t bot, etc.). Most of this falls squarely in the realm of non-Season and requires between 6-10K Paragon, another attribute that is beyond the time and patience of most players to acquire.
The more realistic range for most players is still GR 110-130. This is absolutely achievable in Seasons and non-Season, and this is where the new sets are tuned. It’s also where the older buffed sets are tuned.
So what does a realistic buff request look like? Well, Blizzard already outlined that, and whether that has changed since then, who knows. Maybe? Maybe not? Here’s what they said:
When balancing, we need a point of reference to work around. The “ideal” class set performance for Diablo III is approximatelyGreater Rift 130, solo, andassumes the character has 5000 Paragon levels.
They also added this to it:
While this is our goal, we also recognize we aren’t always going to hit it perfectly. Like many games, Diablo III has a lot of mechanical details. A single change can ripple through many other parts of the game, so it’s important we’re mindful of what each change can affect. We also realize that, even with special care, it may take us a few tries to achieve our intended result. To account for this, we have a scale for error, based on how a class is performing above or below our guideline:
+/- 1-2 Greater Rift Levels: Very close. Probably fine, when accounting for random elements (the perfect “fish”) or high player skill cap (excellent play and timing).
+/- 3-4 Greater Rift Levels: The warning zone. We need to watch for buffs/nerfs in this area, but action may not yet be necessary. Time to keep an eye on it!
+/- 5 or more Greater Rift Levels: Warrants significant change. At this range, it’s clear that something is over (or under) performing and needs to be addressed.
Note my emphasis in bold underline. Balance in D3 is not a concrete node on a spectrum. It’s flexible, constantly changing, and it takes time to look at the overall bigger picture. The devs have already stated they plan to address balance issues in future patches, so for now, if something is OP, who cares? Again, it doesn’t ruin your game in any way. You can still play whatever class and build you prefer, and if you think yours is weak, advocate for buffs!
Of course, because in the end, it doesn’t matter what build does what GR provided the one you enjoy feels strong and rewarding–fun–to play. But I want to point out this faulty notion that people will only play X build because it’s strong. It doesn’t matter whether that’s true or not because that shouldn’t be a reason to nerf a build when other builds could be buffed to that same level.
My passion for D3 lies in the community, particularly in the Barb community. Always has, always will. Regardless of how much I play D3, I still come here to help new players, maintain guides, and advocate on behalf of the community.
The thing is, you never wanted to be in the same ball park. You wanted to be OP, the strongest, top of the line and etc. You felt like that was deserved to barbarians because they haven’t been the strongest in a long time. This is a major problem with your philosophy.
My thing, and others like me, is that we don’t want anyone to feel like they are left behind. We want everyone to be about to clear at a similar level. We don’t want anyone to feel how you felt about the Barbarian situation before the WW/Rend buff patch. If your philosophy of circle buffing continues then this cycle will continue forever. Many other builds will be left out, and eventually we will arrive at a situation where a 1k paragon player with the basic set and legendaries can clear a 150 GRift solo speeds. This is the main problem. You might say, “So what? Everyone’s equal and can play what they want together.” The problem will be that there isn’t anyone to play with because of how easy the game is then.
I want to be able to continue chasing the carrot with my friends that want to play their build. Too many times I hear “I want to play (insert class/build) but I can’t keep up.” This will always exist if you don’t break the OP/FOTM cycle
You know that I disagree with Free on multiple issues and am willing to state where I disagree. However, I will defend him here. I do not think his goal was to have barbarians OP. Yes, the barb buff proposal had 2 major errors in my mind, but the underlying message of barbs (and monks) were weak and needed to be buffed is meritorious and consistent with the facts at that time.
I agree.
Apparently, Blizzard and many players care as highlighted by the nerfs to wizards, necromancers, crusaders (2.6.7a, 2.6.8 and 2.6.9), and witch doctors (2.6.9).
@Free,
I am glad that barbs were buffed. I even suspect that the solo GR 130 @ 5K paragon level has been adjusted a smidgen higher due to power creep.
How we advocate is important. I can only control my own behavior. Honestly, was the goal of making this thread to advocate solely for keeping DH strong or was there an additional motive of insulting other forum member(s)?
In the linked thread, forum members were disagreeing with your position well before I made my first post.
Yes they were weak at the time and needed to be buffed. The problem was they were over-buffed and needed to be reigned in. In which case I can quote multiple times where Free said not to tone down the buff and that it was fine for them to be OP for a season or 2.
The thing is, even after the buff adjustment (nerf) they were still OP. It also spured the current movement in the Barbarian community to lash out at anyone that dares to speak out against bad balance. IE, this thread with all the name calling.
I agree that it would have made sense with the whole GR 141 target at 10K paragon, but with crusaders being such outliers, I think they have adjusted higher their GR targets (top end/ 5K paragon).
This thread is not representative of the barb community as a whole. I often complain about this as posters “speak” on behalf of the barb community as having homogeneous core set of ideas which clearly is not true (e.g. many barbs have advocated for nerfs).
This is 100% false, and my co-author, Rage, will attest to it. You can view our work in full, and follow the link to the relevant discussion to see that in no uncertain terms did we ever request anything other than buffs to close the gap between Barbs and other top classes.
At this point, you’re deliberately misattributing statements and motives to me in order to further your argument.
That’s a lot of assumptions and propechies of doom for an 8 year-old game. And frankly, the only thing that has come close to achieving what you dread are OP Season themes.
This is completely false. If all class builds were buffed to within 3-5 GRs of, say, Zodiac Rend (I’m using that as an example because I know the nuances of the build), everyone could play together–except they still can’t due to metas. Some classes and builds will always be better in multiplayer, and unless you and your carrot-chasers want to play off-meta (which, by the way, is all we ever asked for with respect to Barb group buffs), you’ll need to contend with this.
Blizzard may choose other ways to address balance in their game, and all our discussions may be for naught. That’s fine, too. People don’t play D3 because it’s diffult; Season groups have been blasting GR 150s at low Paragon for multiple Seasons now, and–guess what? That has nothing to do with whatever buffs Barb received. It has to do with group dynamics, new sets and items, and the main culprit, Season themes. In non-Season, folks can blast GR 150, albeit with more Paragon and more difficulty, but they’ve been doing that for a while, too.
That’s the game, Kindran. It will always be the game because Paragon is effectively uncapped while GR tiers stop at 150. The carrot has always been finite–doubly so in a linear game of stacked multipliers.
You’re living in the past. People play D3 for its engaging mechanics, it’s incredible game-feel, and it’s graphical splendor. They play it precisely because it delivers tons of power very quickly.
Over-buffed? Says who?
Not Blizzard. Not Barbs. Not most people who enjoy the build.
Can you see how you’re acting like the Fun Police here?
Actually, I recall barbs who did say it was overbuffed. The fact is Blizzard had bigger outliers to take care of in patch 2.6.8. Again, “barbs” are not of one mind. I would encourage you to cease acting like they are. You can say that many barbs felt the power of ww/rend was fine or a subset, but implying all is easily disproven.
I might find it fun to clear GR 150 in 5 minutes solo at 2K paragon. That does not mean that it is good game design to allow OP builds (e.g. crusaders in patch 2.6.7) to exist. Many crusaders thought that it was fun but it was poor game design and bad for the majority of players = less fun.
You repeatedly use the caricature of “Fun police” when in reality it is a gross mischaracterization.
I’ll say this. Your work in the beginning, before the buff was absolutely amazing and superb for the Barbarian community and class. The issue their-in lies with the responses after the first iteration of the buff in PTR.
This is what I ultimately want. I don’t care what class/build it’s balanced to. I would like the GRift difference between the strongest and weakest build to be within 5 GRifts. If you do up to +/- 5GRifts of a specific build you can end up with the top and bottom builds being 10 GRifts away from each other. That can be a problem.
The problem is Barbarians were buffed beyond that figure and you didn’t want them to readjust the buff in the PTR.
Says blizzard. Since they did adjust the first iteration of the lamentation buff. as well as posted about a specific clear later on that was not even the limits of the build.
Of course Barbarians didn’t say they were over buffed. They wanted to be the strongest OP build. You may never have said you wanted to be OP when you were advocating for buffs, but you certainly changed that tone after Barbarians received said over powered buff.
This is true; however, I do not think many expected the build during the PTR to be able to clear GR 148 with lamentation at 100%-150% as it now has done. My recollection is that a few of us (I think you were one if I recall correctly) correctly predicted the build to be more powerful than low GR 140s and were widely antagonized.
The irony is some wanted to see the lamentation buff at 400% (see here and who liked the post).
“Builds with demanding gear and/or skill requirements should be more powerful than those with less demanding requirements. If a build takes skill and practice to successfully play, it should offer more potential power than simpler, easier builds.”
That was taken directly from your buff proposal so there’s a little build bias, even I asked you about it in the thread when you released this proposal.
But if one build is above the rest then isn’t it much easier to bring that one down a bit so the difference isn’t that great, seems like a much simpler solution. When condemn reigned supreme, it was 5-7 levels above the others, your saying that not nerfing it was the better way of handling it?
Do you know how many builds they had to fix every time an outliner arose?, every.single.build.
Does that mean coming here calling people by a derogatory term because they want to voice their wants in the game that they play.
You may be active in the barb community, but this isn’t about that, it’s about general balance and well-being of the game, which you’ve time and time again stated that you dont care about. You claim this is for the casual “fun factor”, but I cannot see any of that in what you have been posting.
lol. So much fun over here. Just jump the ship show already.