Vo’Toyias Spiker is a legendary shield in DIABLO III.
Enemies will take double damage from thorns when effected by the crusader skill provoke, and also some that deal damage based on Thorns ie Hack.
The thorn set for crusader does not apply this double damage thorn effect to the Invoker 6-piece bonus which applies your thorn damage to attacks, with a description identical to hack which does apply it.
Please investigate the way Vo’Toyias Spiker interacts with hack and replicate it to the invoker 6 piece to remove this bug.
Thanks.
Always been this way, far as I know. Votoyia’s Spiker doubles the thorns area damage (Invokers 2set), but does nothing to the single-target damage (6set). Makes it practically useless, so I never use it.
It is and has been across the board for years now, ever since the Invoker set was introduced. Works with the aoe thorns not single target thorns, nor did it work with hack when hack was affected by the 2pc bonus.
All we can do is ask, I’m glad I didn’t have to be the first one this time. It’s been bugged for years now, and I’d like to see some options for weapon slots open up with that set.
I have a primal sitting there doing nothing. Now that I have said that I have probably now jinxed myself and turned it into 15 forgotten souls because when they fix it, they might change the properties.
It’s not a bug. I believe it’s working as intended, just not as we’d like it.
Foes that hit you take thorns damage.
Invoker’s 2set makes thorns AoE damage. “Your Thorns damage now hits all enemies in a 15 yard radius.”
Invoker’s 6set adds 150 times your thorns to your weapon as physical damage. This isn’t thorns damage. It’s physical damage based on your thorns. If you have 200k thorns, it’s as if your weapon has “+30 million physical damage” on it. Effects that increase your thorns affect this. Effects that increase your thorns damage do not.
So, anything that increases your thorns affects all 3. Anything that affects “thorns damage” applies to direct thorns and AoE thorns, but not to Invoker’s 6set single-target damage.
Iron Skin - Reflective Skin: “While active, your Thorns is increased by 300%.” Thorns is increased, so direct thorns, AoE thorns, and single-target damage are all increased.
Iron Maiden: “Your Thorns is increased by 50%.” Thorns is increased, so direct thorns, AoE thorns, and single-target damage are all increased.
Vo’Toyias Spiker: “Enemies affected by Provoke take double damage from Thorns.” Doubles thorns damage. Does not double thorns. Hence, it affects direct thorns and Invoker 2set AoE thorns. It does not affect Invoker 6set single-target damage.
Hack: “[75% - 100%] of your Thorns damage is applied on every attack.” It does not increase your thorns, so it does not affect direct or AoE thorns. Hack does work with Invoker’s 6set, but it makes it 151 times thorns as physical rather than 150 times. That’s only a 0.67% increase, so it is hardly noticeable.
The bug is that this not all that clear from the item descriptions, but it’s how it has always worked, so far as I know. It’s why top Invoker builds don’t use Vo’Toyias or Hack.
I get that and I have a cc of the top build and it does well over 100 easily, but that’s not the point.
As you mentioned, if it is the wording, then it is a little misleading:
And so it shouldn’t affect the damage of an existing set negatively. However, imagine a new player coming in and reading it,. I am still not convinced it is by design, but a wording issue, however, makes more sense.
The mechanics, for that reason, are a bit convoluted, but make sense overall. Here is a hasty explanation:
“Thorns Damage Builds” and “Weapon Damage Builds” use two different formulas for multiplier calculation - there isn’t one uniform way the game calculates damage instances. “Weapon Damage Builds” have the commonly called DIBS (Damage Increased by Skills) category, which is commonly known as the “additive category”. However, DIBS can be further separated into “selfbuff additive” (Magic Weapon, Glass Cannon, … etc.) and “debuff additive” (Strongarms, Falter, Toxin, … etc.). For “Weapon Damage Builds” both those two subcategories are additive to each other; for “Thorns Damage Builds” they stack multiplicatively. You can see a more elaborate explanation here: Rend mechanics 2.6.7 - #35 by sVr-21743
This merely explains that “Thorns Damage Instances” have an entirely separate multiplier calculation to “Weapon Damage Instances” - both are not sharing the same calculation. Furthermore:
Vo’Toyias Spiker, as a multiplier, only is appplied for “Thorns Damage Instance” calculation - not for “Weapon Damage Instances”.
Hack and 6PC Invoker both convert the current “Thorns” value into “Weapon Damage”. Only after that a damage instance is calculated.
This means: If a Crusader applies Vo’Toyias Spiker’s effect on a target, all Thorns damage calculations taken will consider the multiplier. This also applies to Thorns damage from other sources (includes Thorns Necro for instance). Hack and 6 PC Invoker convert the current Thorns value to “Weapon Damage”. Vo’Toyias Spiker is not a multiplier for “Weapon Damage Calculation”.
Overall, the core of the issue, is Hack’s and Invoker’s implicit conversion to Weapon Damage. I suppose they decided to do this for one simple reason: Weapon Damage Instances have proc-coefficients and therefore LpH, Area Damage and so on can be scaled/adjusted/utilized. Thorns doesn’t have a proc-coefficient, which inherently means neither of those things could be triggered/utilized.
Few extra things, spiker does increase damage from hack. And that no matter which element for punish or slash it always does physical damage, very bug like.
My understanding was these only interact with the 2 PC Invoker bonus not the 6, which is why it doesn’t do as much as people expect. Also any Area Damage that happens certainly isn’t scaled off the 6 PC. IIRC Hack/Spiker/2PC Invoker/6PC Akkhan is the Area Damage/AOE trash clear build.
I’ve never read about converting Thorns to “Weapon Damage” before. What you are stating makes sense given the ‘disconnect’ between the interactions. Is this a real mechanic or just a well educated guess or extrapolation into what’s going on?
