Blizzard, Lets Have A Serious Conversation About The Current Paragon System

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There is a lot of talk about the paragon in my other thread, so I decided to talk about it here. The endless Paragon system is a plague on this game and something needs to be done about it. There are currently 2 sides to this argument.

  1. Dedicated long-term players that defend the current endless paragon system by claiming that they NEED a system for progress and the current paragon system doesn’t give them much of an advantage over casual players.

  2. The casual player see’s the abused system for exactly what it represents; A digital form of discrimination that differentiates the status of players in the form of a DPS/EHP handicap that increases exponentially with more time played.


The Endless Paragon system is NOT a system of progress, but instead it is a system of STATUS. The ONLY reason people want to the current paragon system remain unchanged is to maintain their POWER over others.

Most of them are unconsciously unaware that they are actually defending a system in this game that discriminates against people who are uneducated, poor, underprivileged and/or a minority that comes from a low socioeconomic status background.

The less fortunate do not have parents that will let them live rent free, or have enough money to stay home 24/7 to play diablo 3 and because of that casual players have to spend most of their waking hours working a full time just to survive and take care of their family.

Yes, that might sound a little harsh, but that’s exactly what’s happening with this endless paragon sysytem even more so now that its being abused.

I decided to do a sample class, sample build, to show everyone exactly how much of a handicap these dedicated players are getting over casuals.

Paragon 1,000, Level 100 Gems, Level 100 Argumentations

  • Damage = 3,955,489

  • Toughness = 37,058,795

  • Effective DPS = 131,805,318

www.d3planner.com/745961071

Paragon 5,000 Level 100 Gems, Level 100 Argumentations

  • Damage = 7,878,223 (99.17% DPS Increase)

  • Toughness = 62,360,946 (68.28% EHP increase)

  • Effective DPS = 262,519,176 (99.17% DPS Increase)

www.d3planner.com/794442244

Paragon 10,000 Level 100 Gems, Level 100 Argumentations

  • Damage = 12,781,640 (223.18% DPS increase)

  • Toughness = 93,988,635 (153.62% EHP increase)

  • Effective DPS = 425,911,498 (223.14% DPS increase)

www.d3planner.com/481526069

As you can see the damage and mitigation increases are huge! Now lets see what happens to the numbers when I increase argumentations and gem levels to match paragons.

Paragon 1,000, Level 100 Gems, Level 100 Argumentations

  • Damage = 3,955,489

  • Toughness = 37,058,795

  • Effective DPS = 131,805,318

www.d3planner.com/745961071

Paragon 5,000 Level 120 Gems, Level 120 Argumentations

  • Damage = 8,133,201 (105.62% DPS Increase)

  • Toughness = 64,005,586 (72.71% EHP increase)

  • Effective DPS = 296,341,515 (124.83% DPS Increase)

www.d3planner.com/609804645

Paragon 10,000 Level 135 gems, Level 135 Argumentations

  • Damage = 13,227,851 (234.42% DPS increase)

  • Toughness = 96,866,754 (161.39% EHP increase)

  • Effective DPS = 514,059,908 (290.01% DPS increase)

www.d3planner.com/636839956

As you can see the this handicap just keeps on expanding and getting wider as time progresses. I’m not advocating for blizzard to delete the paragon system, but they definitely need to re-design it or cap the paragon.

Here are some posabilities.

  1. Reduce paragons to +1 mainstat (Clueso’s idea)

  2. Cap the paragon system at paragon 2,000

  3. Stop giving players a +5 mainstat after paragon 2,000 but allow paragons to continue.

  4. Re-design the Leaderboard system and keep the current paragon system the way it is. (idea on that below). (MicroRNA gave me this idea based on his suggestion)

Leaderboard Re-design

  1. Split Greater rifts into two categories (1) That lets you play the GR without rank. and (2) A GR that lets you Rank.

  2. In the ranking GR All players will be reduced to Paragon 2,000, Level 100 argumentations, and level 100 gems.

  3. After the ranking GR is over your character reverts it’s original paragon number, gem levels and argumentations.

Below here are player suggestions.

Cluso, suggested changing paragon to a +1 mainstat and this would actually work accomplish a very similar outcome since it would reduce mainstat by 80%


  • +1 Mainstat would give a paragon 5,000 player 4,350 mainstead instead of 21,750 (which is = to todays paragon level 1520)

  • +1 Mainstat would give a paragon 10,000 player 8,700 mainstat instead of 46,750 (which is = to todays paragon level of 2,390)


Paragon 1,000, Level 100 Gems, Level 100 Argumentations

  • Damage = 3,955,489

  • Toughness = 37,058,795

  • Effective DPS = 131,805,318

www.d3planner.com/745961071

Paragon 5,000 Level 120 Gems, Level 120 Argumentations (+1 mainstat)

  • Damage = 4,720,422 (19.34% DPS Increase)

  • Toughness = 41,922,715 (13.12% EHP increase)

  • Effective DPS = 171,993,423 (30.49% DPS Increase)

www.d3planner.com/448063602

Paragon 10,000 Level 135 gems, Level 135 Argumentations (+1 mainstat)

  • Damage = 5,764,850 (45.74% DPS increase)

  • Toughness = 48,729,412 (31.49% EHP increase)

  • Effective DPS = 224,033,226 (69.97% DPS increase)

www.d3planner.com/106459721

4 Likes
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Even if Paragon didn’t exist, you still wouldn’t get items, gems, so much skill compared to those who play every day …
This is an ARPG game and not LoL or Dota. It NEEDS progression, for that, you need to PLAY. If you don’t have time due to your job, family and other obligations, congratulations, you just have a “life”.

12 Likes
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The average age of US gamer is 35. So the paragon system discriminates against people who can’t put in the time because they work and have a life.

That’s just fine. If you’re living rent free at your parents house at 35 and spending all your time grinding paragon points as the sole purpose of your life, then 200%+ more dps seems like a stupid but fair trade off instead of having a life.

8 Likes
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So, you contend that those that put more time and effort into the game should not be rewarded for their efforts?
You think you should be able to show up for an hour once a week, once a month, once every two months and be able to perform at the same level as those who play 10, 20, 30+ hours per week?

There is no challenge in this game, except GR’s. There is no other reason to play this game past level 70, at which point the most “Difficult” setting of the game (T16) becomes a 1 shot killfest for almost every set in the game. One doesn’t need a single ancient, much less primal, item to clear T16 (GR75) content.

The only reason to play is for the challenge of trying to improve one’s personal best. The only place of challenge is GR’s.
If one has no way to become stronger, then there’s no way to improve; therefor, there is no reason to play… at all. None!

Those who have played since Vanilla could just as easily complain the the rapid progression of these “noobs” that gain 1000+ Paragon in a couple of weeks.
Those who had to grind every paragon when T6 was the highest difficulty and it was hard. Those who had to endure trial rifts just to be grated a single keystone for the privilage of being CRUSHED in a GR40.
Players who have been grinding for 7 years to get to P3000+, but see someone with a cookie cutter zMonk jump into Macro-run GR150’s surpass them in 3 months or less.

It’s a legitimate argument, but they don’t come to the forums demanding to be granted equal or greater Paragon to the noobs. They don’t claim that they are entitled to retroactive experience points, because they played harder content.
They keep grinding out their Paragons, or they quietly retire.

No one is entitled to more leisure time. The average player of Diablo games is 40+. Not many of those live in their parents’ basement. If one isn’t at a point that he or she can find some time to play a game by that age, then probably some poor life choices have been made.

The “Power over others” argument is simply astounding in it’s absurdity. I can but shake my head. Seriously.

I’m P4550+. I’m on the leaderboard for every class and every sized group. That’s a personal achievement not a matter of Status. No one is reviewing all those boards and saying “Wow! Look at Raistlin. He’s on every leaderboard!”
I’m not in the top 10 or 20 of any of them. No one is saying “Raistlin is awesome! He’s one of the best players in the game!”
But, I don’t care. It’s not about Status or recognition. It’s about doing better than the last time I pushed higher GR. I don’t care that people who run Macros, T-Hud, and bots to feed them endless mats are higher than I am on those boards. I just care about whether I do better than I did before, or if I fail.

Despite how much my achievements mean to me, it in no way gives me any “Power” over you. Dude, I don’t even know who you are, and to be honest nor do I care.

There many monsters in Diablo. All of them can killed. The one that can’t be killed is the big green eyed one that lives out here in the real world.

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It would be extremely difficult for Blizzard to modify the paragon system without alienating high paragon players. In the past, I suggested the ADDITION of another leaderboard. The current leaderboard stays as is.

The new, additional leaderboard is capped where all legendary gems are either level 100 or their lower max level (i.e. ice blink @ 50). Augments are capped at 5000 main stat/vitality total. Paragon points are distributed like normal but cap at 800 paragon.

Let people skill be more of a determinant of top clears rather than simply grinding paragon.

1 Like
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Endless paragonsystem is a copout and a cancer to the game. The reasons for why this very discouraging system is bad have been mentioned a million times over. Hopefully for D4 they skip it.

It does not need progression in the form of endless exp grind. D3 is probably the only one that has it.

No, they should not be rewarded forever. If they can’t enjoy the game without chasing a +5 carrot then they need to stop playing. Hell I’d even recommend visiting a shrink if that +5 is what makes or breaks the experience.

3 Likes
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Thats what Primals, and gear are for. The RNG aspect is what makes it fair for everyone. The only thing playing more gaurntee’s you is more drops, not better items. If you become better skilled thats fine, that is fair in all competitions. The amount of time you put in enhances your skills. The paragon system doesnt do that, instead it give you free DPS/EHP that is unrelated to skill.

I never said that. You do get rewarded alot in this game. Diablo has ancients, Primals, Legendary gems, Bountry Bags, Stash tabs, ect… Then you can play seasons and start all over again every 3 months and get all the rewards all over again!

Would you fully support the NBA’s decision to start rewarding players 20 free points for every decade that they have played in the NBA? No one would! That’s because in a FAIR game everyone is equal, the only difference is the amount of time you put in to enhance your skill. Letting a player start the game with 60 free points simply because he played for 3 decades is not fair to anyone and discriminates against new NBA players.


Practicing and building skill is NOT the same as getting a FREE handicap!

That’s what seasons are for.

Actually being able to catchup is a fair game. The current endless paragon system is not fair because you may never catchup. Paragon is a cancer to the game and you just desribed exacly why.

This is not true. No one is demanding anything. We are asking for EQUAL treatment. No free Handicaps over other players. A handicap = cheating.

Again SKILL and a HANDICAP are NOT the same thing!

That explains your bias against the argument. Let me ask you this… Since your telling me that the paragon system is not a form of cheating by providing a handicap DPS/EHP increase simply for playing more then you would totally support the decision of blizzard to reprogram diablo 3 to reward those who have money to purchase purchase 1000 paragon levels for $10 in our current unlmitted paragon world?

You would totally be against that because a player with money can easily buy 50,000 paragons and you’d never ever have a chance to beat them on the leaderboards making the game extremly unfair to those without money. Thats exactly how new players currently feel with the current paragon system.

3 Likes
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I guess I just don’t get the OP.

If there are people out there who just spend their entire day playing a game, that’s not a handicap to me. I’m going to play the game regardless.

What this game desperately needs is a way to sort the Leaderboard based on Paragon level. This would, for example, show how people in a particular paragon level tier are doing compared to others in their tier.

For example, there can be a tier for people under 1000 paragon; one for people with 1001-1500 paragon; one for people with 1501-2000 paragon; one for people with 2001-2500 paragon; etc.

This way, people could easily compare their performance with their paragon-point peer group. That would make it a lot more simpler in terms of determining if somebody is doing well because they’re good, versus, because they have a lot of paragon.

Any thoughts?

5 Likes
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Impossible because D3 is now in maintenance mode. They are not going to waste their time to redesign the Paragon level. You bet is D4 where they will actually design a better paragon system if there is one in the game.

Capping the paragon is possible but so far they seem no interested to do so.

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The only thing I truly hate about the paragon system is the round robin point allocation scheme. When I’m trying to progress, especially since I play solo, I want to be able to put my points where I need them when I get them, not only once every four levels. It’s the sort of “on rails” feel that the game still has. It never made sense to do that in the first place. That’s the only thing I want gone from paragon. It isn’t like I’m going to hit 3k or 5k or 10k in the near future or likely ever. I don’t bot and I play solo. I just want a flexible system that make sense.

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I rather have paragon, then nothing. I guess you are much lower on level? Cant see your profile. I dont think a 6k par And higher would come up with this.

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With all these rewards you are getting, why do you care if you can do GR 100 while I do GR120?
But you miss the point. Rewarding isn’t about items raining from the sky. It’s about setting a goal and pushing yourself to achieve it. It’s about the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge.
No other part of the game is rewarding to play. Anything at T16 is too easy. There is absolutely nothing challenging about it. Everything dies at the press of a single button.
The highest difficulty of any game should be hard. The highest level of Diablo III is a joke. A level 70 Pargon 0 can clear everything T16 can throw at it. No Ancients needed. No Primals needed. No bounties needed. Campaign, Bounties, Nephalem Rifts, all of it… Click > Boom! > Dead Screen. Items rain from the sky! Yay! I am REWARDED! Err… no.

Would you buy a ticket to a game of football where an NFL team plays against a junior high team? The Heavy Weight Champ vs. a skinny homeless guy? No.
That’s what you get once a character gets to level 70 in Diablo III outside of GR’s: A totally lopsided mindless exercise in boredom.
Why would anyone buy a game for $30+ that can be beaten in 2 days?

The only “rewards” from seasons are stash tabs until you get them all, and whatever cosmetics they may offer.
Completing seasons isn’t challenging. Seasons start on Friday. If I bother to play them at all I’m done with Guardian on Sunday. Easy peasy.
Item and gem plans are not rewarding. I taught the NPC’s how to craft Flawless Royal Gems and Aughild’s Armor years ago, and several times since. It’s not a new challenge. Been there, done that.
What I haven’t done is a GR135+ solo. The only way to do that is for my toons to get stronger. The only way for them to get stronger is by adding Paragons. So, I’ll put in the time and effort to earn those Paragons. When all my time and effort pays off, and I finally clear a GR135 solo THAT will be rewarding.

Fair game? You mean how the USA sends its Dream Teams loaded with NBA stars to compete against Camaroon in the Olympics? That kind of fair?
The NBA isn’t fair. Rich teams buy the top players and win championships. Poor teams don’t. How many championships do the Lakers have? 16. The Celtics? 17. The Hornets? 0! The nets? 0.
Owners that invest in their teams reap greater rewards than those don’t. Gamers who invest in the game should also achieve more than those who don’t.

This game was released almost 8 years ago. You think that new players should be on par with players who started when it was new?
If a runner shows up after a marathon has started, should he be driven to the front?
You feel the same way about casual players?
If said runner decides to take breaks during the race should they stop the progression of the other racers until he decides to start running again?

Seems fair to me. Sure. Why not? In either case at least that way he has a chance “to beat them.”

Definition of Demand: an insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right.

3 Likes
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I think maybe you should get a grip its just a game

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I think capping Paragon is not really the best thing to do, since it takes away too much incentive.

Maybe it could be that after Paragon level 2000 you only gain +1 Mainstat and Vit per point instead of +5 per point.

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This just makes me sad. This comes up every single ptr. The Paragon system is not going anywhere. This late in the game do you honestly think blizzard is going to drop it? All of the top promotors of the game have high Paragon. Can you honestly say it makes good business sense to piss those guys off? Blizzard is a business here to make money. You can argue that the little guys paid for the game to but promotion is the only way to get new players and make that Almighty dollar. It’s a sad truth but a truth non the less.

1 Like
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This whole problem with paragon I think has arised when very creative blizzard devs have decided that unlimited main stat from paragon levels is a genius idea.

Of course now a 10kP player is out of control compared to 1kP player for example. The levels themselves mean nothing without endless progression in mainstat. If there would be a cap on mainstat let’s say 1000 or 2000? Then this whole powercreep would end somewhere. Levels could be left just for the sake of “Hey look at my number, I’m cool right?”.

Of course, someone would still be paragon 10K vs someone with 1K, but on paper it would make no difference, just the leaderboards again " Hey, look how cool…" yea we know.

Put a cap on stats via paragon and it should be fine, progression is still left. Although, I might be missing something.

Sad news is, if they would have cared it would have been changed a long time ago :smiley:

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Cap on mainstat and some QoL or something afterwards would have been better. By making it 1 instead of 5 yes, most of the problem is gone but it is still there.

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Just why do you say? Don’t you want to grind … in a grind game? Paragon is perfectly compatible with this game.

Do you really think you will have the same gear as a player who farm all day every day? LOL …
Furthermore, there is no excuse even for those who complain about the paragon system.
The more paragon you have, the more difficult it will be to get. There is a lot of scope to get close to all these high paragon players, you just have to play

What you ask for is meaningless, and you still forget about gems of caldesanns. If you don’t have time, nothing can be done. Even if you play LoL / DOTA / SF / CS / OW you will still have difficulty keeping up with the skill of dedicated players …

1 Like
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I Will be clear and easy.

1.- Online multiplayer game base on items and gears, no trade = boring farming for hours.

2.- progression base in just to kill moobs? With no story or increasing the challenge while leveling? Boring again. If I want to play that I’m going to KH3, FFXV or any Game like that.

3.- The item system, I still prefer find hard to get nice items in group or solo instead of find everything easy and because you can’t play 8h+ every day can’t compete or enjoy the hard stuff (if we can call GR like that…)

I Will be honest, i’ve been playing MMO and RPG games since i’m a child, and it’s always the same, boring solo playing, or just bad tries to make the community play together.

To me Diablo 3 is just a game which I play “new patches” and just for a few days before getting bored

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Dude, there are some very real and serious problems out there associated with coming from underprivileged background, but having lower DPS in a video game is not one of them. Please, stop with this nonsense - you’re only making things worse. Not everything is social justice issue, and making things like this into one will only serve to alienate people and take attention away from where it is actually needed.

Not being able to play a video game for 16 hours a day is called being a functioning adult, by the way. That has nothing to do with one’s background.

6 Likes