Blizz, Don't Overnerf Firebird

General Discussion
1

Update 11/12/21: for the 2nd half of the PTR, the nerfs to 2 piece and 6 piece are reverted. But, 6 piece no longer works with pets, meaning Images Firebird is toast (Twister Firebird will still be OP as hell on console).

This means that Firebird is basically becoming focused on the “Flame Blades” build, which is probably ~10 tiers weaker than the current Images build. So, the magnitude of the overall nerf to this set remains the same, or is possibly even increased a little (from around 9 tiers to around 10).

Expect to see top clears in the next era in the low-mid 140’s, with high paragon.

A good thing for Blizz to do at this point would be to double the 2 piece or 6 piece bonus (to 6000 or 10000%, respectively) in order to make this build feel powerful without being OP.

Better still would be to revert this nerf to Images, and rework Deathwish instead.

First, a disclaimer:

I mostly play Barb. I don’t even play Wizard. So I’m not writing this for my own benefit… I just don’t like seeing an interesting thing discarded in the dirt.

How powerful is Firebird now, really?

The lowest paragon I can find in Non-Season for a Firebird 150 clear is in the 8k range, and of these, the most impressive is the clear by NotLikeThis on the EU board, in 12:11, with 8431 paragon.

Let’s assume that the time required for each consecutive GR level would scale up by 17%. Of course, this is not actually the case, since factors like AD and Stricken mitigate this time increase, but with this build, it’s relatively accurate, since AD is not used, and Stricken really only applies a time saving during the boss fight.

So, 12:11 is 731 seconds. 731 * 1.17 = 855.
A greater rift is 900 seconds long, maximum, for a success.
Obviously, he could have cleared 151, if such a level existed, under the timer.

855 seconds * 1.17 = 1000 seconds, which is well above the 900 second time limit, but, who knows, maybe 152 would be possible too. So let’s say 151-152 is near the limit for an excellent player with 8.4k paragon.

With a 9 tier nerf, this would be reduced to 142-143 at 8.4k, about 1 GR stronger at 10k (GR 143-144), and maybe 2-3 GRs weaker at 5k, (GR 140-141). To do 150 post-nerf, you’d probably need something like 156000 mainstat (assuming the 8.4k clear was done with about 52000 mainstat), which would require a paragon level of about 29000, which is obviously impossible. The highest paragon levels I can actually find are around 18k, which would give you roughly 4-5 GRs of damage above 8.4k paragon, or a top clear, with truly crazy paragon, around 148.

Bottom line: post-nerf, this build will be pretty comparable in power (or even a little weaker) to something like Leapquake or Frenzy Barb, GOD DH, or TR Monk. That’s… okay, but definitely not great.

Applying just one of the two nerfs to this set, in comparison, would leave you with 5k paragon clears of GR 145 or 146, which is much more in line with the stronger builds of other classes (Rend Barb, Bombardment Crusader… still a good bit weaker than multiple Monk builds…).

Other players have suggested things like altering the Mirror Images interaction with this set, or nerfing/removing Deathwish, and those are good ideas.

But, Blizz, if you aren’t going to do that, due to limited dev time or for whatever reason, then just don’t overdo the nerf you’ve elected to apply. Just pick one or the other of them, not both, and leave it at that.

Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Barbarian

42 Likes
2

You like math way too much.

4 Likes
3

And all of it to be on the cheater boards that are filled with bots.

2 Likes
4

+100 to Rage
Sure Firebird is slightly overpowered but the power comes with a cost: no immunity to CC effects (including knockback) so that pushing with the build puts in an extra layer of difficulty.
It’s hard to understand what’s going on with the developer team these days. Cutting both the 2 piece and 6 piece bonus in half is senseless.

10 Likes
5

Not sure anything that requires 8k paragon needs a “nerf.”

If it could do that at 800 paragon, absolutely bat the nuts off the squirrel.

6

Well, it is a very powerful build. And not only that, it’s also a very consistent build. It’s the combination of those two factors that results in there being not just a few really high clears, in the hands of really great players, but buckets and buckets of high clears:

218 150s (about 40% of all 150s completed this era)
564 145s
739 140s (that’s more 140s than every other class put together has completed- around 700- and that even includes the formerly-very-powerful Bone Spear necro)

I think a nerf was expected. Hell, even desired, by many, including numerous wiz players, who maybe don’t want every other build they have to be so badly outmatched.

But, -9 tiers is too much.

6 Likes
7

Well, everybody has been saying they should remove mirror image interaction (and thus Deathwish multiplier) and otherwise leave the build alone. But now MI is still the strongest variant and the other (more fun) builds are ruined.

2 Likes
8

I mean, the ideal solution would probably be to apply one of those two nerfs, but also maybe jack up the AS bonus on Fragment of Destiny to 150% or something. Then you’d have two good variants rather than just one OP one.

7 Likes
9

Clearly that’s the way to go. One of both nerfs is enough. Wizard was always a class with one build that dominated everyting. Other classes often had good in class balance. But PTR is much better now. They even do skill changes or improving another legendary, that was not mentioned it the first cycle.

1 Like
10

Yeah, this nerf is complete overkill. Only one variant is overpowered, but it affects any build using the set.

The other thing that really needs to happen (and might solve much of this problem and many others besides) is making Deathwish more focused (channeling skills only) and with a much increased multiplier, to make builds centered on skills such as Disintegrate viable.

8 Likes
11

Honestly, this been said by a lot of wizards for a significant amount of time; especially when etched sigil was “changed”.

2 Likes
12

That’s not possible.

9 Likes
13

The biggest issue to me is that manual Flame Blades, as it is right now, is reasonably competitive with many of our other builds, and a fair bit weaker than Mirror Images.

After the nerf, manual Flame Blades will be weaker than basically all the common (and uncommon!) wizard builds.

I estimate after the nerf it’ll be weaker than LoD/DMO Twisters, weaker than LoD/Typhon’s Hydra, weaker than LoD/DMO/Tal’s Frozen Orb, weaker than Chantodo Vyr’s. And weaker than Firebird’s Mirror Images, obviously.

The Firebird’s nerf significantly nerfs another build as a byproduct. One that isn’t currently overpowered, but will be basically not worth playing after the nerf.

The problem isn’t the Firebird’s set as a whole, it’s the Deathwish + Mirror Images interaction.

The set was very specifically designed to make it hard or impossible to use with Deathwish. On the first PTR after the Firebird’s update, they changed the mechanics of the set specifically to make it harder to work with Deathwish by making the Arcane Torrent: Flame Ward variant not work. Based on their actions, a reasonable conclusion is that they didn’t want another wizard channeling build. They seemed to be trying to design the set to specifically avoid that.

And then Deathwish Mirror Images happened. I don’t think they foresaw this until it started appearing near the end of the PTR. I don’t think they intended it. They may have liked it a bit at first since it made use of an extremely underutilized skill, but it became obvious it was far too powerful.

To me, the best option would be to either 1) completely kill the Mirror Images interaction (not ideal, Mirror Images goes back to obscurity), 2) reduce the damage that FB6 procs triggered by Mirror Images can deal or 3) remove the Deathwish interaction somehow.

#2 is probably ideal because it preserves all existing FB playstyles while nerfing the problematic overpowered one. Mirror Images normally deal 10% of your spell damage (or 20% with the Mirror Mimics rune), so they could apply that mechanic to the FB6 procs triggered by Mirror Images. A 10x nerf to Mirror Images is too severe, but you could tune the numbers so that you are just nerfing the Mirror Images variant.

Manual Flame Blades is not wildly overpowered right now, and the nerf in it’s existing form will almost completely kill that variant.

I’d rather see a more nuanced nerf that primarily nerfs Mirror Images without proportionally nerfing Flame Blades by the same amount. With a nerf across the board to Firebird’s, Mirror Images remains the strongest Firebird’s build and all the other Firebird’s variants become quite bad. No one likes that.

13 Likes
14

They might have a plan on tweaking it back later on by supporting non-class Sets or buffing legendary random occurance effect items. Take it easy and enjoy the ride, you have an entire season ahead. The numbers might not be final as well. Being jealous of other builds’ capability is nonsense; your mangrove fish doesn’t have to climb a tree better than the others.
Firebird’s prowess was so strong, it was highly mobile and overpowered to tackle any task; be it farming or pushing. It has nothing to do how other builds capable of doing high Greater Rifts while they have to trade off something in return while your build doesn’t have to.

They always watch the overall performance of a class before nerfing them. If build is too sharp in traits and doesn’t require class to shift gears while performing different tasks then it gets nerfed for build diversity. They gameplay test and decide the power of the Set actually hinders the mechanic skill required or trivializes it, then it gets nerfed again for balance.
Only when they realize players have nothing else to play for a new season after they achieved the starter Sets, they keep the build as it is, while it requiring a nerf on the contrary for this or that reason. They apparently need more statistics, information and diversity for other builds so when they have enough data, Firebird can bounce back.

I can’t list their entire thought process, but I don’t think there’d be too much of an impact for something so strong as Firebird from one merely nerf as that build always have open ends to buff it another way. They just promised a footing of 5k plvl for GR138 and that’s incase your build is not a sub performing hodge podge that is cobbled under a minute into the game, or cause horrible multiplayer performance by desychronizing the calculations.

15

I’m with you 100% OP, but in the PTR notes:
**Developer's Note:** The Wizard's Firebird's Finery was reborn in patch 2.7.0 and has been one of the strongest builds in the game for all activities since. It's time to reduce the power of Firebird's Finery to bring it more in line with other classes and builds.

Here’s the brutal truth to the butchered Firebird:

  • Firebird’s Finery (2-piece bonus): Disintegrate Ignites enemies, causing them to take 1500% weapon damage per second until they die. When you die, a meteor falls from the sky and revives you. This effect has a 60-second cooldown.
  • Firebird’s Finery (6-piece bonus): You gain 2500% increased damage while Ignite is applied to a target. Hitting an Ignited enemy with a non-channeling fire spell deals Ignite damage multiplied by Combustion stacks.
1 Like
16

I agree that they’re over-nerfing the build, so I would like to suggest just doing one, instead of two, of the nerfs which was earlier suggested.

1 Like
17

Just because Barbs aren’t smart doesn’t mean the people playing them aren’t. :wink:

5 Likes
18

OK, lets take a build we buffed two patches ago and completely destroy it. It was reported people were having fun. Just throw Wizzard Firebird in the trash bin with the Necro Bonespear and Crusaider. Force them all to play Monk summoning Fire allies for META and then we will destroy that build next patch. Good job, so creative.

3 Likes
19

Blizzard…

“NO! DON’T DO IT!!! Fool, you have just ensured the doom of this world…”- Tyreal

1 Like
20

It’s not the first time that Firebird has been completely nerf down, I still remember well, summer 2016, for example.

About every six months things and sets are nerfed, I save myself the listing of these sets …

If there were so constant nerfs at WoW, the players would run away in rows.
But at Wow, the smarter minds are certainly at work.

1 Like