Biggest Concern for Diablo 4 - Loot - Where Diablo 2 succeeded and Diablo 3 failed

General Discussion
41

well, ofc. i like the idea to have every item to be useful
but there isnt the rarity tier for no reason, like
you are mostly dropping white items and then blue and then yellow…
if you wanted to have them be totally equal, you need to change the whole idea and system and people still enjoy like…finding a yellow or legendary
so you will always have a kinda progression of item tiers in this genre
but if you make some affixes exclusive to a specific tier, it would work ofc
or just make blues like always having way higher values of affixes
that was kinda my approach to this whole thing
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/d4-itemization-the-more-the-merrier-not-always/10162/122

blues have the big stats, yellows have the many stats and legendaries have the special stats

42

Just read through your suggestion. It looks like great minds think alike. Your example fits pretty closely with what I wrote:

  • The legendary is build-defining by modifying the skill
  • The Magic item has the power multipliers (+AS and +CH)

Only the rare is different and follows a more traditional D2 item budget, combining linear scaling stats and multipliers on the same item.

The reason I want to separate them is to avoid the Trifecta/Quadfecta problem and the Power Creep problem from D3. D3 allowed too many multipliers to be stacked too easily and the result was that they were so powerful nothing else could compete. They rapidly invalidated the vast majority of the items by failing to keep power systems that scale logrithically under control. By separating them, you force the player to choose the multiplier or the base stat, but can’t put both on the same item.

In practice, separating them allows you to specialize into fast, continuous attacking (+AS), steady damage or a more random damage output (+CH/CHD), and allows the D4 devs space to bring back mechanics like crushing blow (hits do 25% of opponent’s damage), or the amplified version of criticals, deadly strike (hit does 3x normal damage). You can give larger and more powerful multipliers, because you have necessary balancing structures already built-in.

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43

I’m curious whether the majority of players view “loot” as a means unto itself or as a means to an end? Or phrased differently is the purpose of loot to serve as an exclusive reward/achievement for time spent and for overcoming specific in-game challenges. Or is the purpose of loot to provide a sense of progression by facilitating access to more difficult content and to promote build diversity by creating alternative play styles?

And I wonder does having more complex and redundant attributes actually contribute towards achieving what players envision as interesting itemization. The D3 developers seemed to believe that having multiple variables for damage did little more than force players to create spreadsheets in order to calculate whether new gear was actually an improvement and opted instead to simplify the gear calculations. Unfortunately this resulted in gear monotony (trifecta stats) and left a void for players wanting to engross themselves in theory crafting and/or discover optimal gear performance. However, does increased complexity in calculating damage output or mitigation actually foster rewarding decision making?

I think those who have been advocating for adding “purpose” to itemization are on the right track. Many have already stressed the importance for every tier of item rarity needing to hold “value” - be it through specialized crafting or unique item properties. But, how else can we make the gear value-proposition more interesting? If we look to the current modes of play in D3 we have speed farming, GR pushing and group GR pushing. The BIS items change in accordance with the activity the player engages with and I think it is this link with activity that needs to be stressed more heavily in D4.

This can be accomplished by either introducing more unique end-game activities/modes that encourage the need for different builds. Or to introduce item properties that specifically favor certain activities or in-game situations.

For example, what if items had a “weight” attribute that adversely affected movement speed? Or if items had a property whereby durability was linked to elemental resistances - degrading more rapidly in situations or environments where they are susceptible?

I suppose the difficulty would be whether the affix table for such attributes would be exclusive to particular items thereby pigeon-holding build diversity or common across the board but procedurally assigned.

However the D4 developers look to tackle the problem of “loot” I do hope they take to heart the adage “best often but not always” and look to incorporate meaningful but straight forward trade-offs between gear through item attributes.

44

And Diablo III Is a complete failure and copying Diablo III will take Diablo IV straight into the sewer and if you think Diablo II didn’t age well at least it’s doing better than this failure of a game

45

If D3 is a complete failure, why are you playing it and why do you post on this forum? Just go back playing D2 :slight_smile:

46

Great post OP, I think you articulated in a short summary the main points that are what added so much replay-ability to Diablo 2 and what left many feeling bored quickly after playing Diablo 3.

I believe the dev’s have heard the community on wanting rares being competitive with uniques in some way. We don’t know necessarily how yet. Hopefully they will give us an update on their progress in their item system soon.

I also think we need the stats such as FHR, FBR, FCR, and HR back or even a couple of them to give some more character building and item depth. However, the system that David Kim recently proposed a few months ago with the angelic, demonic, ancestral is similar in the way that it promotes the same fundamental mechanics of the “item juggle” that those Diablo 2 stats did as well.

Trading also plays a huge role in the community. Without a community the game will feel very isolated.

47

The main problem with loot is that it’s based ON TOP of many other systems. This means that that if core/bottom systems are shallow then also the loot system will be shallow. You can’t go very deep with a “main stat” system. You can’t go very deep with 10 different resource types. You just can’t. In order for the loot to be interesting, core character building, character progression, skill system and combat system must be DEEP. If this is not the case, then the loot system will also be shallow and warped like in D3.

48

Trading plays no role in the community. Just look at PoE and see why.

49

How many end-game (Hell viable) builds used magic items?

Magic items can be really useful.
For example, just some items that I’m using farming hell right now:

Blue ring: 31 MF (could roll 40 MF). Best MF uniq ring has 30 MF.
Blue belt: 92 life + 20 fire resist. No unique or rare belt has that much.
Amu: 97 life + 20 all resist. Just very cool defensive amu, hard to replace.

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50

Getting gear for endgame fast is a terrible game design. Fast gearing is okay (as a concept) only for those who want to finish Normal Difficulty. However, if you are going to play further, items must be hard to get.

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51

Currently in D3 you salvage 99% of “legendary” items you find. What’s legendary about them? That’s “legendary”, recycled TRASH.

52

Never said they should copy D3 though, so not sure why you’re talking as if I did.

53

In Grim Dawn, only MIs are more suitable than legendary items to a specific builds, and note my word “more suitable”, not “better”.

Would be nice if D4 has something of an MI on its own, to boost damage to a specific skill of a specific class. Many powerful builds in Grim Dawn are created simply because of those MIs.

Games like Grim Dawn also implement similar form of crushing blow, yet it grants players and mobs a resistance to it, to the point where end-game bosses can’t be affected by crushing blow at all. The fact that crushing blow exists in D2 without a counter-mechanism is somewhat broken.

Because D3 doesn’t have a loot filter? And too many legacy legendary items. Pick Grim Dawn for example, the reverse will be true, with 99% legendary and MI being useful to one build or another.

And this forum, what is wrong with most of you? With the kind of mentality that D3 did this badly, so we must implement from D2 instead? So to you, D2 and D3 are the only 2 aRPGs out there? If D3’s itemization is bad and D2’s is not perfect, then learn from other ones. Easy right?

Then come the combat mechanism. IMHO, I don’t mind getting items easily if the combat is challenging and it takes skills with your mouse, your keyboard, your good APM to kill a big boss. Of course a well-thought and diversified itemization system will be nice too. If possible, I want both: challenging gameplay and item diversity.

Let’s face it, one of the main reasons FPS and MOBA games are at the top of gaming world right now is because you can’t really complain “oh but he has invested more time playing”, “he has higher level than me”, “he is better equipped”, but because it takes skills to play these games, and it promotes a certain level of fairness, where if you can’t do something, you mostly have only yourself to blame. Does D4 dare to reward skilled players to the point where a naked char at level 40 can defeat bosses, given enough time? OK, how about that char only wears yellow items with only 1 or 2 legendary but can kill bosses faster than another player who plays the exact same build and setup, has full legendary equipped but is not so good with mouse and keyboard? Will D4 dare to do that?

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54

Completely agreed.

Learn from Grim Dawn in particular.

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55

I also sell most of the “uniques” I found in D2. What’s so unique about them? A sellable trash.

56

Maybe after 20 years of failure it’s time to IMPROVE if finally? In D2 uniques at least don’t drop like candy.

57

It doesn’t matter whether it drops like candy or not when most of the uniques that you got in D2 is sellable trash too. You can’t even salvage it for future usage.

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58

Maybe if gear wasn’t that integral for builds in D3?

For example, if I want to play a viable hydra build, I will need magistrate and serpent sparker. Sure, I could a wizard without them, it just wouldn’t be very fun or effective, and I wouldn’t start playing a hydra build until I have assembled all the requisite gear.

The challenge will come in obtaining ancient / primal versions of them if the player is determined enough, but currently, given the way D3 has been balanced, you will need all the set items and unique items, and need them to be accessible early enough if the game is to be any fun.

59

In my few hundred hours of D2 99% of all rare and unique drops were vendor trash. I don’t see how D3 is any worse in that regard.

60

Having to examine every @#)$U&@ rare that drops is the opposite of what we want. That would be boring and unfun.

The point of tiers is that we get to a point where we only have to pick up and examine a relatively small number of items that have a relatively high chance of being useful.

Agreed on looking forward to more info, though.