- Big D4 feedback post -

This is a large post for D4 devs with what I liked, what I didn’t, ideas, suggestions and more.

Fist of all I would like to say english is not my native language, so I apologize for any mistakes made.

Also when I speak in the name of other people, it’s usually my own personal experience plus a lot of friends (close ones and online) that have shared their thoughts. I do not know what the 100% of the player base thinks about some of the mentioned items.

Hi I’m avunaos, biggest fan of the diablo franchise. Played every diablo game over the years, including D1, D1exp, D2, D2 LoD, D3, D3 RoS, and even the major clones of the genre like Titan Quest, Divine Divinity 1 & 2, Torchlight 1 & 2, Grim Dawn, Fate, Mythos, Van Helsing, Path of Exile. Also playeyd big-time MMORPGs like Lineage II and WoW and other minor mentions such as Path of Diablo, MedianXL.

I’m sorry for the long introduction but I wanted you to know my gaming background so you could take my suggestions seriously and not just being a little kid’s wish.


a) Random shower toughts:

Disclaimer: This is not a critic to any company or game, it’s just what my mind has been gathering for 20 years of gaming or so. Do not take any of this personally.

What I’ve seen over the years in the overall gaming industry is an increase in:

  • Easy & simplified mechanics (treating players like people who can’t figure out math, or damage calculations, or skill builds is bad)
  • Little exploration / secrets (every mechanic is introduced with tutorials, leaving so little to discovery and exploration, wich makes the most satisfactory feeling)
  • Flashy effects (more and more explosions, camera shaking, billions of different colors splashing out when you only throw an axe)
  • Repetitive activities/quests (to the point where it gets boring to even wanting to log-in, even though many players would keep doing them it doesn’t mean that’s the right way to design them)

And those might be good logic thoughts since we didn’t have that many sites with Tutorials, walktroughts, skill calculators, best build & items forums, etc back when D2 was a thing. So getting rid of the secret-ness of things might be a good choice, but it’s actually not since they add more depth to the game, even when you can find it online.

And a decrease in:

  • Original new mechanics (it’s hard to create something fresh and new, but not impossible)
  • Difficulty (being afraid that hard stuff would repel players is the most common mistake, you could have easy low-rewarding gameplay and hard high-rewarding challenges)
  • Build diversity (there will always be a best build with BiS items, but the power between #1 and #2 should not be significant enough to never pick #2, and #1 should be really grindy to obtain in either case)

I’m taking as an example the game Path of Exile, not for trying to copy any of its features, but to show how a game so complex can be so successfull even with their “if you’re overwhelmed by our mechanics, we don’t mind you leaving the game completely” philosophy. Again, I’m not saying you should copy any of PoE features, but just don’t be afraid of creating difficult mechanics (like D2 runewords) for the game. They add more depth to it and build exploration. With the current rune system that was in blizzcon, I feel the combinations are limited, where as if you just add 1 more layer for 3 rune combinations, you could potentially increase it to millions of combinations :arrow_right: therefore creating more diversity and exploration.

Also separation in Early-game / Mid-game / End-game is crucial to differentiate players and aproach an excelent game for all. Casual players won’t reach endgame most of the time, but this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t focus there, since your most hardcore dedicated players would stay forever if you provide good end-game options, and most likely support the game with MTX if they do.

Imagine a Paragon system like D3, but where those points go into a passive tree like D2. Creating new synergies for your already end-game chosen skills and gradualy increasing in power in order to be able to defeat an uber-lilith or something like that.


b) What I like about D4:

  • Darkness:
    The aesthetic was almost perfect, I think it was at 70% of its best. Just a little more would have been perfection. BUT as a guy mentioned in a reddit post, the creature outline and on-hit-shining effect kill the mood. Also the player-centered light is too bright in dungeons, every enemy should be an unexpected surprise.

  • Giving each class a unique feature:
    This is awsome. I think the barbarian 4-weapon feature can be expanded to other classes as well, there could be more exploration in other classes, like for instance Sorceror combining elements in a specific way to deal more damage (freezing an enemy then fire-ing it, or electrocuting it), so each class plays differently with is features.

  • Non-linear campaign:
    Perfect way to go in modern gaming where everyone wanders their own way to play. Hoping there will be different endings/consequences by doing thins one way or another. Ever thought of the Nephalem becoming evil? or helping diablo/lilith achieve their goals? That’s an easy way to create 2 dividing factions for PvP matches like in wow. Nephalem vs Melahpen

  • Endgame maps (upgraded dungeon system):
    This is a fresh and unique way to approach endgame maps and I’m really happy about it. They should be quite hard to clear

  • Mounts:
    Awsome way to introduce cool skin MTX and gameplay mechanics that involve them, as you featured on blizzcon. End-game waypoints are needed for players that would want to grind open-world creatures instead of upgraded dungeons, and not having to travel 30 minutes riding a mount.

  • Not killing the solo play:
    This was excelent and it was my #1 fear, if D4 went MMO it would have killed the franchise completely, I’m glad you still think about them solo players that want to confront evil and darnkess by themselves. Perfect balance between choosing to see people or not, and not wanting to engage in group-only activities without being restricted of endgame content. 10/10.


c) What I didn’t like:

  • Simplified stats:
    As I mentioned above treating players like people who can’t figure out math or builds is bad. But that’s not the major issue, with simplified stats you get less space for itemization, affixes, ways to interact with you character’s damage and defenses, etc.

  • Legendary-only focused itemization:
    Grinding is good and is the main reason people still today play D2, to obtain that specific items or a perfect version of it. Don’t be afraid to let players grind their gear. If you make legendaries (or in this case, mythics) super-rare and game/build changers, that’s the right way to go. But you should be having a really tough choice between replacing a yellow helmet with REALLY good stats on it, with a legendary one for the legendary effect.
    What happened with the talisman idea on D3? That was super interesting. Or maybe a mix between D3 talisman and D2 charms, since you now have divisions in item categories. Having more item customization is not bad.

  • Shallow skill tree:
    I know it was only a demo, but it feels kinda small and shallow with low-effort character upgrades. I feel a passive tree should modify skills (or character) in a unique way rather than just increasing 2% damage per point. Cool ideas would be changing an element of a skill, or adding projectiles, or transforming actives to passives, etc. Also making sinergies is an awsome way to add depth to customization. (for instance if picking wolves and storm, when you cast storm it would inbue your wolves with storm power and now they shock enemies on attack).

  • Some gameplay mechanics:
    I feel the cooldown & cost of skills shouldn’t be mixed. CD should be for ultra powerfull skills that must be used in the right moment for a powerfull strike, an amazing crowd control, or a damage burst. This skills shouldn’t be abused too often and CD is right for them. For regular skills, I feel CD is an old mechanic that might bring old problems with it. There’s nothing wrong with spaming meteors if you have the mana to do it. Resource management should be another layer of player-based combat choices. If that’s not the case, then the player would just spam whatever is on cooldown without creating a strategy behind it’s abilities (like it happened in D3). Amazing reward for amazing combat choices are so gratifying, you don’t even have an idea.


What I would like to see:

  • Crafting:
    NOT IN THE D3 WAY, but more in a way that you could actually create something you need with enough effort, maybe at 70/80% of its core potential. For instance crafting a legendary staff yourself would provide you the effects but since it’s crafted it only has 60% of stats.

  • Environment and/or elemental strategy:
    Examples could be electrocuting creatures on water, auto freezing enemies on an winter map, stuning creatures by breaking the earth beneath them, making them bleed with sharp blades/axes, burning the ground, etc.

  • Player vs Player
    D3 promised it and never delivered. the D3 demo arenas were awsome, but there could never be balance if you hit for billions of damage. Hope D4 pvp goes back into the roots of simple D2 battles with the power and enhancements of new features that provide an awsome experience for players. (and a real reason to grind those mytics). Ladders are just not that interesting to everyone.

  • Sense of discovery:
    Just imagine if for the first year of the game after its release, nobody would have a clue of what their doing. Communities gathering in forums, discords, trying to figure out mechanics and teaching each other the secrets to the games most rich features and mechanics. After that a fan site would post all of that and lazy new players could still search for them. This first experience would be a true diablo game. The occult wouldn’t make a tutorial on how to be a demon, nor should tyrael teach you how to be a Nephalem.

  • Longevity:
    Think about what makes people still play D2, what’s so great about it even though it was created more than 20 years ago. I really hope D4 carries on that legacy and redeems the link between the awsome company that created the franchise and the awsome father of ARPGs. You can do it, you are awsome and passionate. Best wishes and energy for all the team. :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

1 Like

I’ll answer some things from a game-designer perspective. The thing you need to always remember that in 2019 the competition is MUCH greater than in 2000. So are the money. Back in 2000 you could experiment all you wanted, and the most you’d be losing was a few months of time for 5-10 people if your game was a flop. Today, indie can still experiment, but projects like Diablo cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and have hundreds of people involved in their developent for years. The games are bigger, and if they fall - they fall that much harder.
Furthermore, there’re so many of them being developed that a lot of things you can come up with - have been already tried by someone. Instead of blindly testing a new idea, you can actually look how it fared for someone else. You also have access to all the information and statistics to make an educated decision when planning out your game.

When game A is easy to get into, and your game requires people to spend hours with a sheet of paper calculating stats - the majority of people will go for the easier game. Yes, there’ll always be 10 of you who like to theorycraft on your own, but sadly, the market moves in a different direction, and it’s the players’ interest that dictates that.

Why would you hide features of your game? In the age of rough competition, you need every advantage, and so you don’t just make some obscure mechanics that only 10% of your players will find. That’s plainly a bad game design.
Secrets are a similar matter. You either make them feel cheap - like a small room with a chest of gold behind a hidden wall. Or you put resources into content that not all of your players will have a chance to experience. And many companies would rather increase the breadth of their MAIN content than make some well-hidden temple full of traps.

That’s a matter of style, of course, but here’s a thought for you:
Between two identical (by function) items, people pick the one that looks better.
And at a first glance, the thing that has brighter colors (to a point) often looks better.

Also there’s a matter of Uncanny Valley. It’s much easier to do a stylized cartoon character that people interpret as human and forget that he’s stylized - than it is to make a realistic one. There’s always some little things that are “off” and that feeling doesn’t let us relax.
THis applies to everything from characters to rocks. A Pixar-style cartoonish mountain looks more like a mountain than a 10-billion-polygon realistic render.

(have no time to go further, maybe continue later)