Lots of discussion about Barb. Blizz hates barb part of the Jay Wilson legacy. Jay loved Barb and made them op, Since then no love at all lol. _emphasized text_t was one thing 3 season ago but now I look at lb season …gr 150? 4 man wtf give barb a buff 10 level gr fine but 30 level come on?
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I thought b.s. was battle shout and was disappointed in the thread content 
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Well some content is better then none. Point is Bliz is going backwards. No Blizz anymore sadly. Activision sucks.
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Let me correct something and provide additional info. The top solo season 17 barb clear was 126. The top solo class is 138. The top 4 man clear that includes a barb is 150. In the top 1000 of the 4 man leaderboard, there are a grand total of 0 WD, 1 DH, and 1 Crusader. There are more than 250 barbs on this leaderboard. Barbs on solo are only a few greater rifts behind crusaders and demon hunters.
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I think I got like 105 or something season 17 .I only played theme. Lon. Not everyone wants to fish rng. Most people at the top are either 3-4k paragon or just fish gr. It doesn’t mean they are good they just grind xp and fish.
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Even if you are fishing you still have to be capable enough to manage the rift. Taking the time to fish a decent rift to push on also doesn’t mean a person isn’t good, but I guess it might mean they put forth effort.
Don’t engage with this dude. Aysrian is clearly just salty. No game is ever going to be perfectly balanced but the community response about barbs speaks for itself.
This is not really true. I feel like you might be distorting facts to make a stale point about the 4-player meta.
First, are we talking about Season or non-Season? You can’t calculate them together because S17 and 18 have buffs that don’t necessarily apply to non-Season. For a true long-term comparison, you need to look at the non-Season leaderboards, and you need to do it for all three major regions.
As of 7/3, here were the global averages of the Top 10 clears by region:
Class / NA / EU / AS / Average
Barb: 125.7 / 127.7 / 126.8 / 126.7
Cru: 130.0 / 132.1 / 129.7 / 130.6
DH: 129.0 / 131.2 / 129.9 / 130.0
Monk: 125.4 / 129.3 / 127.6 / 127.4
Nec: 130.8 / 135.3 / 131.2 / 132.4
WD: 130.2 / 132.2 / 129.8 / 130.7
Wiz: 136.0 / 138.9 / 138.3 / 137.7
Compared to Crusaders and Demon Hunters across all major regions, Barbs were 3.9 and 3.3 GRs behind them respectively.
Compared to WDs, Barbs were exactly 4 GRs behind.
Compared to Necros, Barbs are 5.7 GRs behind.
Compared to Wizards, Barbs are 11 GRs behind.
But that doesn’t tell the full story. You can also compare the averages of a region across all classes, and even there, Barbs (and Monks) lag behind by 3+ tiers.
The global average for all classes was 130.8, which means Barbs can’t even match that in any region’s top 10 average. DHs and Crusaders can.
If anyone wants to update this date for a current estimate, please do. It’s simple:
- Take the top 10 non-Season clears from a class and average it.
- Repeat for all classes on all region servers.
- Post the data in this thread.
Micro, I feel like you’re ignoring data to fuel an argument that boils down to: Barbs and Monks have always been in the 4-player meta and that’s not fair and they should be nerfed out of it.
DH and Crusader are not without options; as Ulma–a Rank 1 player across many classes, solo and group–has pointed out, both DHs and Crusaders can DPS in groups as RGK, all the way up to 150, in multiple player configurations. They’re not optimal, true, but they’re also not bad choices, and quite a few groups make use of that.
If you’re arguing that DHs and Crusaders are left out of the meta, well, sure. There is always going to be an optimal comp, and we are never going to achieve a balance where any class comp can be swapped out for any other. In this game, that is an impossibility.
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When you know the dps needed to close a 4 gr cap, you can see how much a « few gr » means
You neef to DOUBLE the damage, so in fact for doing as much as a Crusader, you need 2 barbarians… it’s not a « few »
Barb have a guaranted zdps slot in 4man ? Nice, i, like so many players play solo. What am i suppose to do alone with 0 dps ? I will never cry if dh or crusaders can have equivalent IP buff or something like it, cause if barb lose his place in 4 man, there will be no more excuse for fixing it.
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Ceratainly, I know that there never will be perfect balance. I think you have trivialized the fact that since season 5, crusaders and DH are never part of the 4 man meta. During the same time, monks and barbs always are.
My numbers and yours present a similar picture. Barbs have the lowest solo clears and the best are wizards. Comparison of the top clears on America region is 12 tiers. Your average of top 10 tiers across regions is 12. Also monk are the second lowest solo and there are off about 2 tiers in both of our analyses.
This weekend I will do a more comprehensive analysis of the top 10 solo seasonal in each class in the America region. I am really interested in legendary gem levels, hours played across classes and paragon levels. When I peaked at crusaders I saw something that caught my attention, but I do not have enough info to know if it is an outlier.
Also, this data and even the ones we quoted are flawed. If you look at recent ban waves, these tend to affect preferentially impact DPS classes so the true gap between legit top tier barb and top tier DPS classrs likely is an overestimate. Still it is really bad, but not 12 levels.
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MicroRNA you can’t just look at the top clear, you have to look at the average per 1000. Thankfully Free posted this data.
Looking at the LB here on blizz site 2019-1 Era
130 solo clears
Barb - 3 (7 if you drop to 125 threshold)
Crus - 6 (49 @ 125+)
DH - 4 (46 @ 125+)
Monk - 1 (9 @ 125+)
Necro - 7 (23 @ 125+)
WD - 7 (25 @ 125+)
Wiz - 101 (291 @ 125+)
It’s obvious that the zBarb/zMonk inclusion in the meta for groups is NOT helping them solo at all. Even with the xp/para/gems gained for being in the meta as a Z it’s doing squat for them solo as DPS. They are the only ones with single digit LB spots at 125+.
I main a DH btw - but started as a Barb so I feel their pain. It sucks to hear “but you’re in the meta” as reason to not give them buffs.
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If you combined the Wizard & Barbarian Season 17 Leaderboards, do you know what woule be the breakdown? 7 Barbarians would make the Leaderboards for Wizards in Seasons.
- 993 Wizards
- 7 Barbarians
Let that sink in.
I don’t think it makes sense to compare Barbarians & Monks. Monks are almost just as far behind it looks like. Which means Monks should be making threads asking why they are also so far behind. Buffing Barbarians to the power level of Monks would accomplish nothing in terms of game balance.
So really the only comparison that matters is the top class to insert your class. And no, I don’t want anything negative to happen to Wizards. I am using them as a benchmark for what I would expect Barbarians to be at.
The 4-man meta is going to leave at least 3 classes out no matter what. So worrying about the 4-man meta composition makes no sense to me. 2 of the 4 classes are usually support/zdps too. Having Mob Rule and Ancient Spear shouldn’t discount the massive discrepancy between the top solo build and the bottom solo build.
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It’s also important to point our that EU has 2 monks with a 133 clear and Asia has a 132 clear on monk.
It goes to show that Monk is stronger than barb. Monk still needs buffs, but not as badly as barb does.
The reason monk clears are lower for US is merely popularity as it has been proven the class can clear 133.
*Both 133 clears from eu were under 14 minutes.
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Even if it was true that it was only a few behind, and it’s not of course. Even then it would be nice to close the gap of 4 GR’s. And at that amount of GR on that level takes a ton of extra damage to accomplish. Can you imagine how much more damage they need to have to be on par with wiz, not better, but on par. It’s insane.
To close that gap, every Barb build needs:
To achieve intra-class parity, Zodiac WW needs +2 GRs
- To achieve both intra- and cross-class parity, Zodiac WW needs +6.1 GRs
To achieve intra-class parity, Fire and Physical EQ need +2 and +3 GRs
- To achieve both intra- and cross-class parity, Fire and Physical EQ need +6.1 and +7.1 GRs respectively
To achieve intra-class parity, IK HOTA needs +3 GRs
- To achieve both intra- and cross-class parity, IK HOTA needs +7.1 GRs
To achieve intra-class parity, R6 HOTA needs +0 GRs
- To achieve cross-class parity, R6 HOTA needs +4.1 GRs
To achieve intra-class parity, Vile Charge needs +0 GRs
- To achieve cross-class parity, Vile Charge needs +4.1 GRs
Note that the bulleted, larger amount consolidates the intra-class parity buff combined with an additional 2x damage.
Some builds need way more love than others.
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MicroRNA since people came to this new forum and started to talk about buffs and things for Barbarians, you lash out.
You lash out comparing Barbarians with other classes, not being in the “meta” etc.
But as others have told you : Crusaders, Wds and Dhs can all become bosskillers in the meta, people run with what everyone else does.
But that does not mean you can’t fit in those classes.
Necromancer AND Wizard have been on the top a long time by now.
Remember, this is a HackNslash game. Not WoW or anything else.
Free wrote a really good thread about how little Barbarians have gotten compared to every other class.
That the messages from Blizzard was : “we are not done with Barbarians”, and simply put it, all they did was to pick up Morticks brace from the recycling bin and implement it.
It takes next to nothing to do so, while other classes have gotten updated buffs for their legendary items.
Barbarians also needs fixes for their set bonuses, cause of right now, they are the most clunky ones in game and most broken ones as well.
Is zdps needed? Sure, until Blizzard either removes it or nerf it to only work for your own class. I wouldn’t mind that at all. All your supporting skills only work for you. But we can’t decide that.
You can suggest it.
But the facts still remain as I wrote before. Barbarians got nothing compared to all other classes.
I tried Barbarian just recently. With 7 ancient items from a Wizard did more with a LoN Hota build than a full set of ww WITH the weapons and decent rolled gear and ofc. around 400k more damage on the ww build than the LoN one.
Is monk behind? Yeah.
Do other classes need work? Ofc.
Is zdps both bad and good? Yeah.
But take away your viewpoint of defending your statements and just look at Free’s post about what Barbarians recieved over the years.
If you want a balance and fairness, shouldn’t the Barbarian class get as much as the others?
Btw :
You do this in several threads regarding Barbarians. Stick to one or make your own if you want to discuss your opinions. You have been proven over and over again that your statements don’t stick.
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While I don’t really care one way or the other, the wording on this annoys me.
If META means Most Efficient Tactic Available, then no, no other class can be the boss killer, because then they are no longer running the META.
Either the current zBarb, zMonk, Necro, Wiz combo is the META or something else is. They cannot both be unless they literally do the exact same damage, mitigate the exact same damage, and move just as fast.
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it’s worse than that. there actually would be kinda 1000 wizards and 0 barbs in your example.
I’m a solo wizard player. I pretty regularly clear 125-128 in EU season w/o fishing. Just clearing rifts (would estimate the amount of my clears in that range for season 17 are like 60-70). So the actual disparity is even bigger than you’re trying to point out with your example.
It’s a huge mess. You’re almost forced into particular overpowered classes if you don’t play meta 4man grps and wanna keep up with at least a decent chunck of paragon / gemlvls.
I like playing barb, I really do. However it’s impossible for someone with my playtime and playstyle to create a barb at all. sad times…
So you type “while I don’t care”, whilst apparently you do. I know what meta stands for. As told by others = those classes can be bosskillers. People just don’t use them cause they follow the stream. 150s are possible for Dh and Crusader, heck even Wd.