Bane of the Trapped vs Gem of Efficacious Toxin

General Discussion
1

I’m just trying to understand how “Bane of the Trapped” is recommended in most builds which gives 15% damage for enemies under control impairing effects compared to Gem of Efficacious Toxin wherein all enemies hit gets Thousands of Percent of damage as Poison over 10 seconds (Depending on level of gem)

Same thing with Pain Enhancer partnered with a cubed Envious Blade or slotted Envious Blade. (Which gives Thousands worth of bleeding percentage)

What am i not seeing here that others do?

Thanks

1 Like
2

The 15% is a multiplier to every other skill you do, where as poison damage is only that % forever.

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3

well, i would say its because bane of trapped is multiplicative and boosts your set’s bonus damage, while gem of toxin does not stack. If you take LoN u get with every attack 9750% damage boost. With gem u gain damage compared to one attack per 10 seconds, while trapped boost every attack u do.

4

Let’s use rank 100 gems and a Shadow/Impale DH as an example…

Rank 100 Bane of the Trapped
45% increased damage against mobs under control impairment (1.45 times)

Rank 100 Gem of Efficacious Toxin
7000% weapon damage over 10 seconds (70 times)
Enemies take 10% more damage (1.1 times)

Let’s use a primal Karlei’s Point as an example
If it has 10% weapon damage and 7% IAS it has 3083.4 damage

Okay, so let’s factor in the Shadow Mantle set bonuses…

Melee weapon = 6000% increased damage (60 times)
First enemy hit = 75,000% increased damage (750 times)

Damage as a result of Gem of Efficacious Toxin…
3083.4 * 70 * 1.1 = 237,421.8 damage

Damage as a result of Bane of the Trapped…
3083.4 * 60 * 750 * 1.45 = 201,191,850 damage

So, 237 thousand versus 201 million.

11 Likes
5

lol you’re paragon 269 (ns) and 400 (season) ur sooo cute :ok_hand::sweat_smile:
Bane of the Trapped gives more xx% (mine gives 49.50) damage than 15% you just need to level that gem up more, and toxin gem is good for supports characters, and btw the bleed and poison damage is nothing, is absolutly nothing so doesnt matter even if it gives 10.000% bleed/poison, that is useless.

6

Toxin poison damage doesn’t match up with your specific skill bonuses coming from class Sets. To utilize it, you need to use Sets with general damage bonus. Also 15% more damage appears to be favored over 10% more damage, that’s all.
Toxin is just middle ground between Trapped and Powerful but requires specific setups to utilize Damage over Time effect it offers.

Also Pain Enhancer known to cause lag in multiplayer at a large fight. I think Toxin is the same deal so that’s why people prefer BotT too.

7

As naksiloth mentioned, you’ll need to use a set with a global damage modifier if you want to benefit from the damage potential of Pain Enhancer or Toxin gem. In all other cases they are used solely for their secondary, utility properties.

However, with proper setup those gems do provide reasonable amount of damage. In fact, they are (Pain Enhancer mainly) the main damage source for the Lazy Inarius build.

11

The math is wrong. Not that it changes anything really but if you’re going to compare you should do it right.
melee weapon : 6000% -> multiplier of 61
It also affects Toxin’s poison damage.
However, toxin’s damage increase is additive with additive %. Which the build runs 30% of with strongarms. Plus some with impale damage (doesn’t affect toxin damage obviously).
So you’re looking at :
3083.4 * 61 * 70 * 1.4 = 18.4M… over 10 seconds. So really, 1.8M DPS. (shouldn’t attack speed also increase this value ? d3planner says no)
Impale with toxin does :
3083.4 * 61 * 757.5 * 1.7 * 1.4 = 339.1M… twice per second at least. So really, 678.2M DPS.
I included 40% dmg from elemental on bracers + quiver, and 30% dmg from impale% on helm & boots. Yes, I know you can have 15% impale on quiver & 20% elem on amulet. I just thought for simple maths it wasn’t worth going full min max on gear.
Total damage : 696.6M.

For BotT, it’s simply 3083.4 * 61 * 757.5 * 1.6 * 1.4 * 1.45 (removed 10% additive, added 45% multiplicative) = 462.8M, or 925.5M DPS.

So by switching from a lvl100 toxin to a lvl100 trapped, you get 32.9% more DPS (on an impale DH).

Obviously these values are further increased by crit chance and dexterity but it’s not necessary to include it in the comparison since both benefit the same.

1 Like
13

lol i know very little?:sweat_smile:, im just saying damage over time of PE And GoET is completely useless, even if it was 100.000% bleed or poison means absolutely nothing in a greater rift 110+ (because monsters have trillions of life), anyone just playing at T16 can realize that, you only need the atk speed increase and the 10% increased damage and deal 10% less damage, and as i said before the GoET is only for zDPS,

14

Yep, your response clearly shows you know very little. While their damage isn’t great, at higher levels and combined with a set which has global damage multiplier, those gems deal reasonable damage. For example Lazy Inarius build, where all damage comes from those gems, can easily do T16 blindfolded. As I said earlier, the gems provide reasonable amount of damage. Not good amount, definitely not enough for pushing GRs.

Hell, I did GR80s with Lazy Inarius before the set got buffed. Yeah, not brilliant but reasonable levels. Which completely debunks your claims them being useless offensively.

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15

While it can be fun to burn down enemies over time, at higher levels having to wait 10 seconds to deal all the damage means you are killed less than 5 seconds. A crit from a ranged mob can one shot kill you in a lot of areas, so dodging them for 10 seconds while waiting for them to die, instead of using damage bonuses and builds that do the damage up front gets you dead.

2 Likes
16

Since the discussion has shifted around a lot, I’ll do my best to isolate the exact differences between the two gems mentioned in the original post.

  • Bane of the Trapped

While the bonus to impaired enemies does indeed start at a 15% bonus, it grows a lot. At rank 100 this bonus is 45% and maxes out at 60% with a rank 150 gem. This damage bonus is multiplicative to any damage you do from any source. The only caveat is that you need to slow/chill targets consistently.

At gem rank rank 25+ it provides a small 15 yard chilling radius (like a personal air conditioner), but this won’t help ranged builds much. Thus, items like Pinto’s Pride or skills like Thrill of the Hunt are ideal with this gem. In short, for most common builds, you should have this bonus applied for the majority of the damage you deal.

  • Gem of Efficacious Toxin

This gem simply adds a poison damage-over-time debuff to any damage you do. The 10 second duration is refreshed when you hit a target again (it does not stack). Next, the poison damage it deals is not multiplied by your skill damage or set bonus (unless the set bonus boosts all sources of damage, e.g. LoN). Thus, for many builds, the poison damage is negligible.

At gem rank 25+ it increases the damage monsters take and reduces damage they deal by 10%. This 10% bonus damage is additive with many other multipliers: skill damage increased by 10-15% (found on class-specific items), Strongarm Bracers, Marked for Death (skill), and many others.

  • Conclusion

You now need to compare: doing +15-60% more damage to anything chilled or slowed as a multiplicative bonus, to +10% more damage to anything poisoned as an additive bonus (the real bonus might be significantly less depending on the build). Thus, the Bane of the Trapped is the superior damage gem in almost all situations.

That said, the Gem of Efficacious Toxin does have a use in that it applies the damage buff for all players. Thus, a supporting-role player can use this gem to help the party deal more damage and take less damage.

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17

I know this is a discussion of Trapped vs Toxin, but I’m pretty sure the Shadow 6-piece bonus doesn’t work the way you guys are describing it.

What it says is: " Impale deals an additional 75,000% weapon damage to the first enemy hit". I’m pretty sure that means that instead of dealing 750% weapon damage, Impale deals 75,750% weapon damage.

75,750 / 750 = 101 , i.e. you are doing 101x as much damage, not 750 times as much.

5 Likes
18

Thank you for the detailed Answer guys. Exactly the math i needed to know.

19

You are correct, Rage. Another way to say it, is the 75,000% replaces the 750% the attack normally does. So it is a 101 times increase not a 750 times.

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20

Aside from what everyone’s already said, I’m fairly sure the Toxin gem simply deals a flat DPS number, not a crit. And non-crit hits are fairly negligible in higher levels.

21

Although DoTs like Pain Enhancer, Efficacious Toxin, WD’s Haunt and Locust Swarm can’t crit, CHC and CHD will still increase their damage.

1 Like
22

lol

23

Sure, it’s a ×101 multiplier but since I didn’t count the base 750% in the math, it is indeed 750 multiplier.

edit: I said 101 cause I didn’t want to enter into a fruitless discussion, it really is a ×100 multiplier over non-6p-shadow impale.
edit2: it is actually 101×

26

Ok, well then it would be x757.5.

Also, by using the weapon dps to calculate, rather than the weapon damage, and then saying “it’ll do this much twice per second”, I think you are double counting attack speed, since this figures into the dps figure on the weapon.