Blizzard is well aware of the bug pack and wall charge. If they were going to ban people they would have done it along time ago. It is something that is likely unfix able or requires more work then they would like to do.
Iâm uncomfortable with folk calling wall-charging a bug. In fact, despite my earlier statement, Iâm not even sure itâs an exploit.
While I canât say with 100% certainty, wall-charging appears to be based on the interaction between character hit boxes and terrain borders. I donât think the developers intended charge to be be able to stick to certain surfaces, but it may have simply been overlooked during development. While the bug pack is clearly an unintended bug or glitch, wall-charging, even if unintended, may be based on programmed parameters. In other words, wall-charging may be working as intended.
Again, Iâm not 100%, but I tend to think of wall-charging as more akin to strafe jumping and bunny hopping in Quake, and the bug pack is like a glitch that letâs you see through, and possibly shoot through, walls.
In the end, not everyone has to enjoy wall-charging, and thatâs fine. To each their own.
But I find it ridiculous to lump wall-charging in with the bug pack.
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The more I try to learn about this âbug packâ the more confused I get.
Itâs classed as a bugged mob? but isnât it just⌠doing what the mob was programmed to do? which is summon adds? has blizzard ever made a statement on this?
Is sitting around waiting for a mob to just do what it normally does really a huge exploit?
More importantly, if it was an exploit, wouldnât blizz have taken action? if this has existed for years and they havenât done anything about it, said anything about it, or punished anyone for doing it, do they even consider it an exploit? how much more of an exploit Is it than just fishing for the perfect rift when fishing for the perfect pack?
Hate it when things like this exist, iâm on the fence about whether it should be used or not, because all my âlogicâ is saying that if it was an exploit, blizz would be banning or fixing it, and since they havenât its ok to use.
But on the other hand my gut tells me its shady, and when something seems shady, it usually is, I wouldnât want to risk a ban by exploiting this, I value my account too much.
But then I think about that old firebirds bug where you just cleared massively high rifts with zero sheet damage, it was a bug, but blizz came out and said they werenât gonna fix it for âthe spirit of competitionâ and they let people push with it.
I wish blizz would just either fix it or make a statement on it
Non-Season
Build: MOTE6-CC2-IB Seismic slam with Zodiac+Mortics
GR Tier: 128
Highest known/rumored clear: 128
Player: Ulmaguest (Archael)
Video:
Berronax, Itâs not what a mob ânormally doesâ.
The problem is that normally, thereâs a cap on the amount of adds and monsters that summoner type elites can have on the screen at the same time. After awhile they stop summoning stuff completely for obvious reasons, otherwise the entire game of D3 would be finding a group of spawning mobs and never moving.
But bug pack refers to certain Elite / minion combinations that when they are generated with the Illusionist affix spawn things infinitely, filling the map with way more mobs than any floor was designed to possess, and they are also all worth progression.
Itâs also way more monsters than is possible on a single pull in a single area. Itâs an impossible circumstance to replicate through the normal gameplay means.
@ Free I disagree completely. Boss fights are a joke for R6 and take almost no skill especially with the leeway provided by bug pack. 100% an exploit clear. The build has bad bosses that take longer but itâs not like itâs hard to play at the boss. Are you serious right now? Look at Huldaâs clear, 134 (and he could have gone higher with half the paragon). 136, 138 all of those tiers are rendered meaningless by an exploit like this. Thatâs why skill is not a factor here.
Itâs a game error, infinite progression in one pull. Nothing to do with gameplay or game skill. How this simple fact eludes you is pretty crazy. It might seem impressive to you because you rarely play anymore, but literally any semi-tanky build can abuse this with the same baseline of skill â none â you just wait for the bug elite to fill the screen with mobs then kill everything.
Remember that Wizard 145 clear with StarPact? Also bugged elites.
As for wall charging, itâs also a bug but it wonât magically create infinite rift progression (which is the same as effective rift damage) out of nowhere.
They arenât the same.
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This is like giving someone who won the lottery credit for their hard work to become rich. They didnât earn that they just got really lucky and hit the jackpot.
I have a hard time believing they developed a movement based skill and were okay with it not moving the player if done into a wall. The only way I will believe this is intended game play is if they fix endless walk set and cause it to go defensive even while charging into a wall.
100% agreed.
While they are two different levels of exploit in my eyes in the end they are still exploits to me. One may be worse but the other is still not right.
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If weâre getting technical, wall-charging is not an exploit. Generally, to exploit something is to take full advantage of a resource or opportunity. Even as a noun, itâs generally paired with a negative or malicious connotation. Very often when we use the term to talk about games, we broaden its definition to include taking (full) advantage of an unintended feature.
While I donât think the designers consciously thought up wall-charging, I do think itâs all a part of hit box interaction. Consider how monsters can get stuck on pitfalls when pulled with Rage Flip, or how WW Barbs can âstickâ to certain walls. Consider how Twister Wizards used to âstickâ and stack twisters. Only one of those was fixed because players used it to break the gameâat the time, anyway.
Wall-charging doesnât break the game, or even a GR, in the same way as the bug pack does. It allows you to maximize Endless Walkâs bonus, but to me, at least, thatâs indicative of little more than EWâs design not accounting for all the variables in hit box interactions.
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I agree with everyone saying that thereâs a distinction between something like Twister Wizard / Wall Charge / Etc and Bug Pack. Bug pack is kinda on another level though. Think about it. GR clears are just about progression, thatâs all it is regardless of build.
A bug that gives free infinite progression on one spot (80% if youâre being charitable and want to go spawn a pylon) is way more game-breaking than the above mentioned.
While Wall Charge or Twister Wiz or even Star Pact (the solo variant) abuse game issues to increase your damage, they donât create infinite progression for you to spawn bosses for free. It is much more powerful to have a bug that creates free progression for you (you donât have to go to next map, or pull, or waste time moving) than a bug that increases your damage.
I got no problem if you enjoy playing that way or if you clear a rift that way, Iâve run into it myself while testing stuff, itâs fun and whatnot. But when you upload a video about it for ranking donât act surprised when people point out itâs just a bug. Iâd expect the same exact reaction if I uploaded a video on any class showing a bug.
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This is where you and I will just have to disagree. I think it does break the game and the GR that you use it in. Could you pump out as much damage without it? Could you have the fire cycle on COE without it? The answer to those questions is clearly no. Without wall charging R6 HOTA is a mid tier build at best. By exploiting an unintended aspect of the game you are putting the build on another level.
For me the debate has always been if wall charging is intended or not. I believe it is not therefore I believe it to be an exploit. Does this exploit completely nullify the skill to clear a GR out like the bug pack does? No. Does this exploit elevate a mediocre build into a god tier? Yes. One exploit takes a GR clear down to 0 skill and the other takes a meh build into god like status.
If taking full advantage of stacking charges faster and out put more damage because of that doesnât describe what you just wrote then color me confused. Take away wall charge and change nothing else. Where is R6 HOTA build now? I doubt it clears 125 without a ton of fishing and good luck.
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I thought that this was one of your 2 arguments about gimmicky play that obfuscates barb solo power. Are you now saying something else?
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I wasnât aware of that, so the illusionist affix allows the mob to bypass this limit and spawn unlimited monsters, thatâs the bug?
Canât help but wonder why the summoned adds give progress in the first place, I always assumed summoned adds gave no progress.
Has blizzard ever made a statement on this bug though?
I believe you are trying to twist Freeâs words here a bit. Yes it does obfuscate barbâs solo potential and masks the lack of power that barbs have but it technically isnât an exploit like he explains. Its a gimicky mechanic that is in the game that a barb can use to build charges for HOTA. If it was a true exploit Blizz would of patched it years agoâŚif they can even actually patch it. I mean they patched the charge/forced move maneuver that cut the animation short a while back. That can be considered an exploit as well.
One can not ignore that yes, wall charging greatly helps Raekor HOTA gains charge stacks to be able to clear higher GRs but the mechanic really shouldnât be in the game. Its mainly a crutch barbs use and isnât technically a true power boost. Again it may be something at this point Blizz simply cannot remove.
HellFire exploit from a few years agoâŚthatâs a clear exploit and breaks the game and a GR completely. Hence why it was patched and players were banned who were clearly using it for their gains.
No. Illusionist isnât supposed to work that way. Only specific bugged ones bypass the limit.
No.
Ah, so this would definitely be something that has to be fished for multiple times, and youâd have to know what youâre looking for?
I.e itâs unlikely youâd just randomly encounter it from any summoner/enslaved nightmare illusionist which is what I thought earlier.
That sucks, something this broken shouldnât be ignored like that.
Yes, you have to walk through maps until you see a bugged elite Illusionist type with bugged illusionist minions. Thereâs a few of them that can spawn with the bug.
You have to intentionally abuse it which is why I kept saying video clears showing it are bunk-- just showing a bug. Youâre basically showing Blizzard video evidence that youâre intentionally looking for exploits when you post a video like that.
Do you not see how those two statements cancel out?
But it is a true power boost. Without it R6 HOTA would be a B tier spec.
Wall charging is just an easier version of this.
This does not mean it is not an exploit. Just because it canât be fixed doesnât mean it is okay. Blizzard has a track record of allowing exploitation to be used when it comes to abusing broken game mechanics. If they canât fix it and it is something everyone can and does use they let it slide. This STILL does not mean it isnât an exploit.
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No.
Wall-charging does not, in any way, shape, or form, âbreak the game.â It doesnât give you +10 GRs of solo potential above and beyond every other build. It doesnât break multiplayer. It doesnât one-shot RGs or remove skill from the equation, and it certainly doesnât make the game unplayable for others.
It elevates a Barb build a few GR tiers, and thatâs it. Your kind of hyperbole is nor productive.
R6 HOTA has never been a âmehâ build. It is, by its very nature, very, very powerful. Even without wall-charging, you will benefit from EWâs set bonusâyou just wonât maximize it.
We havenât seen R6âs true potential with or without wall-charging and sans bug pack clears, but itâs a 128+ build regardless. Of course, wall-charging obfuscates the buildâs actual potential, because its gimmicky nature elevates the build at any Paragon and GR tier. And because it deals significant burst damage, it requires the least amount of fishing of all our major builds.
You and Micro need to read my actual post and not cherry pick things out of context. To clarify, what I wrote was this:
Iâve bolded the sections that may help you contextualize what Iâm saying. Being able to wall-charge doesnât hurt us except in one fashion: it obfuscates a buildâs clear potential without the gimmick. It does not, as I stated above, break the game, and even if itâs an exploit in the strictest sense (allowing us to take maximum advantage of an opportunity), it is not malicious or harmful.
Lumping wall-charging in with the bug pack is ridiculous. One is about interaction between wonky hit boxes. The other is about infinite monster spawns to clear a GR in 1 floor. If you canât see the difference between these, I want the name of your moonshine dealer, because that is some seriously good stuff.
Mind you, this has no bearing on whether or not either of these problems should exist. I suspect Blizzard canât easily fix wall-charging because unlike Energy Twisters, the object in question is under direct player control, and tweaking that might end up causing massive problems with player-object interaction across the board.
Should Barbs want wall-charging patched out? Of course.
Is it as important as getting rid of the bug pack? Absolutely not.
One of these is much more likely, and probably much easier, to fix.
Update: Recent clears have been added to the OP:
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Pro-Slam GR 128
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Pro-Slam 124-126
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Vile Charge GR 133
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R6 HOTA GR 133
Remember, folks, this archive depends on you!
Record your pushes!
And keep pushing!
Okay, so why does that mean I cherry picked? Because I ignored the noun definition of exploit? (even though that bold statement isnât accurate). I think you know which version of exploit I am using and are taking us on a merry-go-round of definitions to try and ignore the point.
I have never once lumped those two things together. I stated that bug pack is far worse but that does not mean wall charging isnât an exploit.
I put the parts you decided to cherry pick out in bold.
You want to talk about hyperbole. Your idea of what is required to be considered an exploit is pretty ridiculous.
Like it or not this game has leader boards. Those boards are a show of skill and time investment from players. When players use an exploit to get ahead it affects everyone. Barbs have been hit by this wall charging exploit for quite some time now and it sucks.
Skill to play the build is lessened because of this exploit. It also forces those who want to actually compete to have to use this exploit as well. I gave up competing when this came about because I already lacked the time investment portion of this game and I refuse to use the exploit wall charge to keep up.
You can think what you want about what this build can do without the exploit. I believe it is much much worse than that and wall charge is an easy 7-9 GRs worth of power.
This is always your go to. Someone disagrees with your assessment they must be on drugs and or an alcoholic. It is old at this point.
Thank you for agreeing with me in the end. I appreciate your support.
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Iâm gonna blow your mind. You can roll a zDPS Barb, grind up some Paragon, and push 120-130+ with the following builds that donât rely on wall-charging:
- Zodiac WW
- Fire EQ
- Vile Charge
- IK HOTA
- Pro-Slam
You can evenâGASPâbe a solo-only player like Rage, play efficiently, and make some incredible clears at a given Paragon. His 123 clear is, to my mind, one of the best clears, period, for Barbs. And with some fishing, I believe he can get 124, and maybeâprovided he gets a GG map, mobs, and Pylon combo with Flavorâ125! Imagine thatâyou can, in fact, compete, even without playing a build you hate. So, I donât for a second buy that wall-charging is somehow responsible for your lack of desire to compete.
And, to be honest, itâs okay not to compete in D3. Itâs just a game, and whatever your rank on the leaderboards, if you donât value it, oh well. Itâs just a video game. In other words, if you want to compete, you have plenty of âlegitâ options, and if you donât, itâs absolutely not due to R6 HOTA.
Youâre welcome to beat up wall-charging, but thereâs an aspect to your rhetoric that comes across like this: âWall-charging is a vicious exploit and the people that use it donât deserve their ranks!â
I would agree if weâre talking about the bug pack, and maybe Iâve mischaracterized (or youâve failed to clearly communicate) your stance, but if Iâm right: No.
I just want the dudeâs name, because after reading a few of your posts, Iâm convinced itâs good stuff. Donât have to be an alcoholic to enjoy some potent spirits.
Interesting.
Quick question: Have you played R6 HOTA? Have you tried pushing with it? Have you spent any amount of time with the build to learn its intricacies?
Iâm going to guess the answer to the above questions is no. And Iâm going to suggest you try the build, and carefully consider what wall-charge does to the buildâs multipliers.