Second place is Arachyr? Really?
Because the purpose was to fill gaps. There were insufficient clears in the original list that I setup. We knew those Necro clears at GR123-125 @ 4k paragon weren’t strong pushes. We needed to pull from 8kp to have confidence in those rows.
Oh Rage, I sense some strong OCD vibes =P. With any patch, there is going to be immature data because of freshness. This patch is technically unreleased AND subject to change. Right now the community knows the leaderboards are going to get turned upside down with nerfs, buffs, and these GR improvement changes. To some extent, the is no avoiding mixing this data because we have to lean on the PTR… right?
Let’s be truthful, Orek’s Dream and the new maps and monster progress are likely going to visibly raise each build’s ceiling by 1-2 GRs.
But again, this is a forecast based on real clears. I don’t it benefits anyone to hide anything. We already know what’s coming. I indicated the PTR clears with asterisks in the Skill column.
Yeah about the final presentation for all of this. What do we want to see? List it in a new thread? Publish it on a separate website? How do we want to show it?
It was corrected. Where do you see it wrong?
Let me double check that… but someone did GR143 in 2862p. That’s a strong clear.
The correct one should be 150, corrected down to 147.6 (which would be 148 on your most recent table).
Oh, ok, got it.
Hahaha, back at you, buddy! 
But seriously:
Yes, I agree, let’s not “hide anything”. That means: info from live, where it’s relevant, alongside any ptr data. The only builds where we have “ptr only” should be Raekor, Inna, Crusader builds impacted by the Norvald’s nerf, and Invoker.
And:
How did we “know” that? Well, because those clears weren’t in accordance with higher paragon clears.
But: that’s true of some of the 5k-9k paragon clears too. Case in point: Earthquake. The clear at 8608 paragon adjusts to 138.4. But the best overall clear, the one at 10190 paragon, adjusts to 143.9, which is 5.5 tiers higher- a big difference! Heck, even the lower clear, at 3673 paragon, adjusts to 139.3, almost a tier higher.
At the end of the day, I think providing several numbers is more helpful than trying to condense it all down into an average. Because the average, as we’ve seen, might be contaminated by the fact that nobody at low paragon actually pushed the build very hard, or by the fact that the person at “medium-high paragon” (5k-9k) who was pushing the build wasn’t actually all that good.
The two most recent tables are the High/Low averaged. I went ahead and labeled both charts to help you understand what you’re looking at.
I pumped it out because I figure we’d want to review the good stuff.
You know…this list come out pretty good considering it was entirely based on data.
Edited my reply above.
@dmkt
Would you still claim that the norvalds nerf is justified?
Good Norvald’s clears are a little underrepresented.
I rushed both of them, just to get it done…
- AoV Heaven’s Fury was based on Ivory Tower – I didn’t use CoE on that either, which is worth +1GR more.
- A6I2 Bombardment, Rick had a GR138 clear on PTR. He’s a strong Crusader player and could have posted a 142+ A6I2 clear. I had to fill gaps. When I ran the 4kp clear, I rushed it… started at GR140 and subtracted -1GR until I got it. I had to fill in the blanks.
I think the nerf was warranted only for A6I2 Bombardment only. AoV is not the powerhouse it previously was, but at least its not completely ruined and Pig Sticker is more balanced with Norvald which I think is better for the build overall. It didn’t lose RGK viability either.
The most pertinent non-ptr data points would be:
GR 138 with 3945 paragon in 756 seconds, adjusts to 140.1
GR 143 with 5303 paragon in 887 seconds, adjusts to 142.8
GR 150 with 9649 paragon in 749 seconds, adjusts to 148.0
Compared to PTR:
GR 143 with 2862 paragon in 872 seconds, adjusts to 145.5
If you just compare the PTR / not PTR 143s against each other, the paragon difference is 2.6 tiers (the time is basically the same). That sounds about right to me for the value of the GR changes: 2-3 tiers.
I think clears with 10k+ paragon should not count towards anything. It’s such a small % of the population. These are freaks of nature. It’s like dudes with 14 inch cough
I agree. This shows the big picture with the GR changes.
If a player didn’t sink thousands of keys into a clear on non-season, we’ll see +2-3GRs for sure. It all makes sense. Once the patch goes lives, it’ll be worth updating all of this data again.
Less main stat as you go up in paragon. But there’s got to be a reason to continue playing, be it loot… something to work towards that bots aren’t good at.
Does anyone remember that 8K Barb a few seasons ago that cleared a relatively quick Rend 150? I recall it wasn’t even a power creep season. I think it was done on the follower revamp so Season and NS were on equal playing field.
That was a boss clear, would love further insight into that one if anyone knows more of it.
Yeah. It was season 23, the follower update season. 8.1k paragon… we were discussing it here. He got banned, so that’s a definite asterisk on that clear, but it’s still impressive.
It’s not as though it’s some insane outlier. We know Rend can do 150 (has done 150, Navy, AS server) at about 10k paragon. Going from 8k → 10k is about a 20% bump in damage, so just one tier. So that banned buy exceeded the best clear currently on the boards by one tier. Not crazy.
Yeah, I entirely agree. I think we’ll probably revisit all this stuff, maybe near the end of the next season when the effects of the GR buff have really had time to show themselves.
That’s a big part of why I think we should, where possible, just exclude PTR info for these builds. I mean, take the instance of Arachyr, which we were just talking about. If we were comparing that to, say, H90 Frenzy, which didn’t really get played on the PTR, it would make Arachyr look 2-3 GRs stronger, in comparison to Frenzy, than it actually is.
If we just focus on the Live data, then we have a good baseline. And we can then take another look, with all builds benefiting from the GR buffs, in a couple months.
I still think we shouldn’t average the clears together. Bad things will come of it.
I mean, let’s say the list/table just stays as it is, and we’re going to use that to advocate for buffs. And, let’s say we want to make Frenzy Barb as strong as Marauder DH. For that, according to the table, it needs +9 GRs (137 → 146).
But, that build (Frenzy) is clearing 146 at 12k paragon. With +9, that would be 155, if there were such a thing. If you’ve got about 70k maintstat at 12k paragon, that would mean you’d expect to see people clearing 150 at around 32k mainstat, or around 4.5k paragon. Way too strong… far stronger than the build we’re trying to “match” it to.
Or, looking just at the “bottom up” Frenzy clear, this 136, with +9, would be 145 at around 4k paragon. Also incredibly strong, though not quite as mismatched vs Marauder.
Part of the reason this is so screwed up, of course, is that we’ve excluded the high paragon clears. If we were to include those, we’d look at GR 146 in 875 seconds with 11887 paragon, which adjusts to 141.8.
If we averaged that 141.8 “top down” with the 137.4 “bottom up”, we’d get 139.6, rounded to 140, and then we’d only need +6 GRs to square with Marauder, which seems less crazy.
That’s not how I’d expect them to handle it though. The devs already have a target in mind, it’s probably not GR146. If they aim for GR141, they get a few tiers of cushion for sandbagging, new meta surprises, crazy fishing, etc.
I thought Marauder’s was fine when came out of PTR 2.7.2. I play tested and knocked out GR143 when it went live followed by GR144. Fast forward past lots of practice with S25, I cleared GR145 with 20 keys and missed GR146 by 1 second. I didn’t even get to the extreme fishing.
For Frenzy, which isn’t performing so great – I can see them editing the 6pc to 1,750-2,000% per stack and moving on.
As for Marauder… I bet it gets tuned down to 9,000% per sentry. It’s in the red zone – we’re going to see massive clears next patch now that M6 is clearly a top build and will be pushed.
I do get what you’re saying, if balancing decisions are to be made with this chart, you’d want to showcase a fairer representation.
Let’s make another set of charts and evaluate it again. And I think it might be wise to include a notes column with an indication of how extreme the clear might be.
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Yeah.
Sounds good.
On the subject of “clear extremity”- this is sometimes just because a build isn’t played that much. Like Twister Wizard. One of the strongest builds in the game, but hardly anybody plays it, so when you then see really high clears, it looks like something weird is happening.
But: nothing weird is happening. It’s just a strong build, but nobody is playing it.
Aside from that clear two other not quite as impressive clear both are from era 14. World rank 9 150 in 14:21 with 10132p and world rank 16 147 in 14:21 with 7585.
So, looking at the data, it appears that the difference between the strongest and weakest solo push builds fit inside 143 - 146 @ 5k para. Let’s break that down further.
The balance between the strongest class and the weakest class (solo) is roughly just a few GR’s apart. Let’s go even further.
There are 17 builds in the game, according to this data, that are only 5 GR’s apart from each other.
For those that may not be getting what I’m hinting at, this is actually decent balance between the classes, relative to what it has been in the past. S26 will probably be one of the most balanced seasons in terms of solo push selections we’ve seen in a very long time.
Obviously there are many sets that need tune-ups and are far behind the curve, but it looks like blizzard is slowly (emphasis on slowly) starting to get some real balance happening.
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For high Paragon clears, the extra defence is no joke for some sets. I believe that is ignored in the correction? I’ve mostly put time into Typhon lately, but I expect it to handle like a different set between 3k and 10k Paragon. I guess it’ll be the same for many of the older sets with outdated (read: very little) damage reduction.
So that would be a reason to try to stick to clears not too far off the Paragon you want to correct to.
Well, I think that is actually an argument in favor of averaging the “bottom up” and “top down” clears in the way dmkt is doing.
Because the “bottom up” corrections sort of presume that you’d gain nothing from the extra defense of going up to 5k paragon, while the “top down” clears presume that you’d lose nothing from the defense lost by going down to 5k paragon.
But when you average them together, that really averages out as well.
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ACTUALLY - This “might” be good for the DEV’s who are attempting to follow the BLIZZARD policy Nevalistus left uswith when she moved on, of “Balancing all the sets”
As any longterm player knows, there is a VERY big difference between GR131 and GR144.
As only my opinion which I expect nobody to share, if every set can clear solo 138-142, or 135-138, then in only my opinion, they have achieved a form of balance. To be clear, I mean every CLASS green set, not Blackthorne’s and the green Blacksmith’s sets.