A Short Study on Intra-Class Build Diversity

General Discussion
1

Hello friends! In the lead-up to Patch 2.6.7, there was a serious discussion about whether the massive buffs to WW, and the inclusion of Rend as the chief damage dealer, would result in a lack of diversity both between the classes (Barbs being too buff) and within classes (WW dominating Barbarian boards). I was in what seemed to be the minority, that the buffs will drown out other builds. I was overruled. A second branch of this discussion emerged with the addition of a massive, 2-layered buff to Heaven’s Fury under the AoV set (the new 2-piece bonus, and adding HF to the 6-piece).

This made me interested in looking at build diversities within each class. I used the following parameters:

-Top 1,000 Non-Seasonal on DiabloProgress. It isnt perfect, but it works.
-DP allows you to review most popular skills in the Top 1,000 Solo Softcore. I would never be able to do this without that.
-I focused on damage-dealing skills that disclosed sufficient information about builds. For instance, a Barbarian using Rend could only be using it for WW, as there is no non-Whirlwind, hard-cast-only Rend build I have ever seen. Same is true for Impale and Shadow DH. On the other hand, Hammer of the Ancients can be used either in IK or in Raekors, so only an advanced study would help (especially since IK ALSO uses Furious Charge). I could potentially use Call of the Ancients, but that is not sufficient, as builds other than IK HotA use that.
-I know 3 classes very well (Barb, Crusader, DH) and 2 so-so (Wizard and Necro). I have not played Necro since late 2017, admittedly. I have never played Monk or WD., so I will not comment on those, since I cannot tell exactly what skills deal damage.

With the above in mind, lets take a look!

Barbarians
-Whirlwind is used in 94% of the T1000. Yep, 94%. Of those, about 90% use Rend as well. I believe this means that those 90% are new Ambo’s Wrath of the Wastes, and the remaining 4% use classic WW with Skull Grasp et al.
-.1% (1 build) uses Seismic Slam. Yep.
-Hammer of the Ancients does not appear on the softcore T1000. One HOTA user appears on the hardcore T1000.
-Furious Charge appears in 44.4% of the builds. I believe that includes about 5-6% of players using Charge R4-IK6, and the rest using Charge to proc Band of Might in Rend builds. This is further supported by Ground Stomp being used by 48.4% of players. The rest dont use BOM.
-79% of players use Boon of Bul-Kathos, which is strictly used only in Rend builds to keep up WOTB, and even then, not by all of them.
-VERDICT: Barbarian balance is awful. I feel I was right, and Free was super-wrong.

Crusader
-Fist of the Heavens (FotH) is used in 98% of all builds. I do not believe any LoN/LoD builds use this skill, so this means 98% of Crusaders use AoV.
-Heaven’s Fury appears in 83.4% of all builds. This means those are all the Fury builds (of which over 98% use Fires of Heaven rune), and the 16-17% left over use FotH for damage.
-Now, what I admit is really really weird is that Blessed Hammer appears in 16% of builds. Not sure how this makes any sense, since there is no overlap I can think of between FotH and Blessed Hammer. Maybe someone can explain this one to me.
-There are 21 Condemn users and 1 BS user in the T1000.
-VERDICT: All AoV, no diversity.

DH
-46.5% use Multishot.
-47.8% use Impale.
-Less than 1% use Sentry, so I assume the Multishot is almost-all Unhallowed Essence.
-Less than 1% use Rain of Vengeance.
-8% use Rapid Fire.
-VERDICT: The seemingly best-balanced class. Split evenly between Impale and Multishot, with a bit using RF LoD.

Wizard
-98.6% use Archon in some capacity. The hard part is figuring out how (Bazooka and Vyr’s being the two options).
-82.3% use Arcane Torrent. I think both builds use that.
-16.4% use Meteor. I believe those are the Star Pact builds. The rest are using Chantodo for damage rather than an actual skill.
-VERDICT: All Archons, but split over two ways to play it. Probably still not good.

Necro
-90.4% use Land of the Dead
-89.6 use Skeletal Mage
-Only 4% still use Bone Lance.
-5.3% use Command Skeletons, meaning they are playing Rathma with Jeseths. The rest seemingly are using Skeletal Mages as their damage source, and are playing around huge cooldowns (unclear to me if this is through LoD or Rathma).
-VERDICT: Not good at all, but I feel like Necro was abandoned at least a year ago.

I am accepting critiques both on my method of information gathering, and on my conclusions. I would LOVE an explanation on the Blessed Hammer usage. The rest makes sense.

7 Likes
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I like the analysis. In general, there will be many who use cookie-cutter builds (based on top clears in the leaderboards and guides); however, when one build clearly dominates, it shows that there are issues for within class build parity.

From a practical view, it is hard to balance every set within a class to perform with relative parity and then cross class parity. Matthew Cederquist posted on this. They are trying to improve both within and across class parity but they are trying to prioritize getting the top build for each class to perform at a similar level between classes first.

I also suspect that there is some strange things hiding under the data. For example, 8% of the leaderboard for DH use rapid fire; however, this shows a strong bias to the very top GR clears. Multishot and impale have a lower top GR potential.

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First of all, thanks for the effort!
Data seems interesting, even though i expected it be like that. :thinking:

Blessed hammer is used for Stricking Stacking i guess… not 100% sure, but like 85% or maybe that animation is faster, so you can generate your ressource faster than those lightning ticks from FOH.
Some bosses don’t even get hit by that properly, if this is still a thing.
:sweat_smile:

The DH problem…

Marauder Set needs a specific belt slot, whether cubed or equipped, if you chose to play grenades, maybe even 2. (hellcat + Zoeys)
Ergo…there is no room for the off-set nr 1: Captain Crimson.

You could drop Zoeys and equip Yangs bow for the toughness+ressource and simply cube hellcat, but the gains barely top the losses.
M6 feels sooo weird to equip.
If Zoeys would be built into the set, it would make more sense and frees up the whole set, but the 2pc bonus would be too powerful i guess?

As for rocket builds… Zoeys is set in stone, as a cubed item and you can simply wear Captains, BUT rocket builds don’t have an item for damage boost…so they fall off completely and grenades procc area dmg much better.

Impale…forget it, no damage multiplier on quiver says no for this skill…If there is a multiplier on it, S6 alone would be too strong.

Elemental Arrow not played, for obvious reasons.

I would say, these are more or less the problems M6 is facing atm.

On top of that i would say, everything that doesn’t use Yangs or Shadow-belt gets really ugly to play with M6.
You play UE6 because M6 is just a mess…
N6 is only good for RF and RF itself is just aweful aswell.

If Wohjanni had a fix multiplier it would be much better, you shoot so fast anyway, that you basically just deal dmg on the ramped-up bonus.
Beside RF, nothing would make sense, MAYBE fan of knives, but…this build feels odd also, cause “30 sec ramp up, run circles do nothing pray for area dmg procc-mechanic”.

UE6 will be the king for everything if they don’t change things harshly. (is harshly a word? xD)

I am really hyped for the next 12 months in D3…I hope they will get their balancing done correctly and not only look at the numbers, but also look, how the damage is done… fan of knives/EA/Strafe for example.

PS:

Sry, text got too long, but i will keep it now :rofl:

1 Like
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Thanks Negator.

I would offer a critique, not on the data, but on the messaging. I would like to see steps towards unifying the community, and it pains me that there’s been such a division since the 2.6.7 PTR. I don’t think calling out specific people as having “gotten it super wrong” is helpful towards this goal.

As for the data itself, it’s definitely interesting. I’m sure some part of it is the “new toys effect”. People will play things that are new and exciting. However, since your data comes from leaderboards, I’m not sure how much of this can be attributed to this effect. People will play what is most powerful.

Eventually I’d like to see both sader and Barb become more balanced within their classes as well as between classes. But I can also tolerate a patch or two of being too strong as long as people are having fun.

Like has been discussed in other threads, it doesn’t really matter since Blizzard’s balance philosophy is out of the community’s hands.

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So you are surprised people are trying new content?

Which is meaningless. 100% of Barbs use wotb, 100% of Saders use Akkarats Champion.

Yeah, I expected that.

2 Likes
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@Negator,

I’m struggling to find the data at diabloprogress. I can find season 19 skill data for the top 100/1000 per class, but I can not locate the non-season data. Could you provide the link?

If you do not have rend on your skill bar, then Ambo applies an “un-runed” version of rend. Therefore, a subset of the 4% still could be using ww/rend rather than the old ww build.

@StuRedman,

This post is not about who is trying what new content, but the distribution of skills on the leaderboard. It is about how one build for a specific class stacks up power-wise versus another build for the same class. A weak new build would not dominate a leaderboard over a strong old build.

1 Like
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Well it’s the other way round.

If they had introduced new sets and builds, and nobody used them, now THAT would be bad. Right?

We had 3 new sets this season (counting ww-rend), and they are all sucessful. They already announced ongoing new content. We will have like 10 more seasons until D4, that could be 30 more sets/build moved up to par with the new ones.

Can’t you all just lean back, have fun in the game and wait what comes next instead of whining about lack of diversity (people playing new content, duh) or for nurrrfs?

2 Likes
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I agree, and I think blizz does too. When they introduce a new toy, they want it to be successful. Some examples are Necro in season 11, Rapid fire, darts, and chantodo in season 17, and AoV, WotW and PoJ in season 19.

Some of them they hit the balance just right, like rapidfire and darts. Some of them they overshot, like chantodo.

I think the devs would rather have a successful introduction and then have to reign it in a little bit (like chantodo), than have something flop.

4 Likes
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Blessed Hammer is used in one of AOV HF RGK spec utilizing Johanna Arguement’s 100% increased att spd on Hammer for ultra fast stricken stacks. Its limitation is stricken will be uncontrollable vs RG with adds, but for single target RG, it is the strongest version of AOV HF RGK.

It is strickly rgk and not usable for solo/2p/trash kill dps

2 Likes
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I’d be interested in this too, if it exists :thinking: Far as I can tell, Diablo Progress only shows the skills used by the top 100/top 1000 players in the current season. Not non-seasonal.

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Its not that I don’t appreciate people’s effort, that is a pretty good run down I am sure it took some time. I just see people worried about balancing classes. All classes are op ,or they have been at one point or another. Wouldn’t the focus be better if it was directed to game play rather then how fast you can grind? Try explaining game play rather then just the math :slight_smile: :expressionless:

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Archon=/=WotB/Akkarat’s.

Keep in mind that wheres WotB/Akkarat’s (And similar skills for Necro, Monk, DH, ect) are basically a flat damage boost, Archon completely replaces the skills used - Meaning that it CAN’T be used for 1 of the 4 Wiz builds (Which is Delsere’s). In addition, Archon only has 1 single damage type when it’s used, meaning that using it with Tel’Rasha isn’t recommended, especially as you can’t cancel it early.

This leaves 2 sets that Archon can be used with - Vyr’s and Firebird. You then have to keep in mind that Archon doesn’t benefit from Deathwish/Meteor build (Common with Firebird), which then basically narrows Archon down to almost entirely Vyrs.

So, yes, you CAN tell what builds are being used by the presence of Archon.

2 Likes
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i think youre seeing Blessed Hammer in AoV builds because its part of their speed clear build.
I think they use the rune where it follows you and they just ride their horse through the rift using HF on CD and having a constant aura of hammers spinning around them.

and i agree diversity this season is awful.
i feel forced to play AoV, but im not going too.
Im sick of chasing WW barbs around, why are WW barbs allowed to be so mobile when they are already playing a build that is in constant motion to begin with? So overloaded.
This pandemonium crap is garbage too.
it changes the meta from focusing on the strength of your character to focusing on how well you can group up mobs and exploit pandemonium. Its stupid and defies the whole point of playing Diablo.

2 Likes
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Get more speed (pony set has great mobility) or play higher difficulty. On higher GR the ww barbs need time to take down elites too, and lose the BK speed buff switching to Istvans for more DPS.

You can play season just like normal and take it as a nice extra buff. Nobody is forced to climb leaderboards. But if you want, there will always be some mandatory meta, like it or not. WW is way more enjoyable to play than the silly wall charge meta we had before for barbs.

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In patch 2.6.6 and before, many barbs complained about their displeasure about their poor strength and mobility chasing wizards around that were demolishing rifts.

Now when barbs are doing the same, it is deal with it, add more speed so you are even weaker DPS wise. Playing higher GR that slow down barbs mean that weak class hits like a wet noodle and tend to be kicked from games if not zdps that is limited to monks and you guessed it barbs.

I have an alternate idea. Let’s improve game balance. Buff weak builds. Nerf overpowered builds. As a barb. would it be nice if seismic slam or leapquake could compete with the top barb build.

1 Like
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Try chasing an ingeom monk or wiz in a normal rift with a ww barb some day.

This is not a problem of balance but of GR matchmaking which is an utter failure. Apart from classes or builds we also have paragon, gear and skill which create different levels of gameplay. Some like running 90s, some 100s, some 110s or more. Bringing them together is what is missing in the game.

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I was agreeing with you until this. Free said more than once that Barb is all messed up because of all the weak builds and ww/rend being the first one that should do well. As well as acknowledging that it will be heavily played sure to that problem.

As a side note you should avoid calling people out like that due to the TOS. Easy period is easy to see in the flag option and the inflamatory reason in there.

Wizard is messy with arcane barrage. Deathwish is part of the problem, but mostly it is better than almost all other skills. This because of its higher starting damage, ease of targetting, and mana usage. I keep hoping for a set that makes disintegrate better.

But overall, what you say is accurate. Not all of the problems are sets or items, but the skills themselves.

As MircroRNA said, cookie cutter is the way to go for most. If someone didnt tell them it is the best, they do not use it.

And yes, I did give you a like dispite of what I said early on. I do agree overall with what you said.

3 Likes
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Less “overruled,” more short sighted. There are a number of problems with the way you’re approaching this, some of which are unique to Barbs, others more universal.

WW has always been the most popular Barb build–it was in Vanilla D3, and it is likely to remain that way. Even when it is absent from the leaderboards, it is used en masse for farming or casual play. And right now, it’s getting more exposure since the newest, most innovative buffs for Barbs revolve around Rend and the Zodiac Rend build. People want to play the shiny new thing–doubly so when it revitalizes a classic favorite build (which is, of course, a very good reason why it shouldn’t be nerfed). Barbs haven’t been “too buff.” We’re in the perfect place. Now it’s on Blizzard to get other classes on our level.

When Barbs get their new set, provided it is very strong, you’ll see that take over as the most played Barb set/build. Personally, I’m hoping for a generator-focused set.

Anyway, a good summary is to say that the hot new thing is the hot new thing, even when it’s just an old thing with a cool new coat of paint.

Remember, folks. Buffs, not nerfs.

When you look at the representation of HOTA, you are correct to note that it is split between IK- and R6-HOTA, but that alone is reason for concern. What I mean is that most players want IK HOTA to be the stronger HOTA build, but because we have 2 sets with global multipliers baked into set bonuses (Raekor and IK), the skill–which is not specifically buffed by either set, is likely to be buffed in both by any poorly-considered multiplier. If you look back at our Buff Proposal, you’ll note we did indeed find a way to buff IK HOTA without buffing R6 HOTA, but the developers didn’t fully commit to that change, and Remorseless is still undertuned.

If Remoreseless was further buffed and done so in a way that lets IK HOTA leap ahead of R6, you would see considerably more HOTA clears on the Barb leaderboard. The same can be said of Slam and Fjord–a very strong build, yes, but one that is demanding in terms of gear and play style. The stronger, competitive version of the build that incorporates Crimson’s has problems with toughness, and that’s very off-putting to many players. That could easily be remedied with an update to Fjord that grants 50% DR when using Slam.

I feel your “analysis” is super bad and based on a single Season of data. In other words, your take is skewed.

Here’s a better verdict: Folks are playing the hot new thing, which is Rend. When there’s some other hot new thing, they’ll play that instead.

Do you think D3 is ever going to get to a place where every build and class is in relative parity? That’s a pipe dream. The game is in the hands of the Classic Games Team. It’s on the backburner with D4 on the way.

What you are going to get are a few new sets, some of which are going to be way out of balance as compared to others. And that’s fine. Barbs are super strong this Season. Cool, cool.

Maybe next Season, Demon Hunters are stronger. Sounds good to me.

The point is, considering the resources dedicated to D3, expecting functional, worthwhile new sets and near-perfect inter- and intra-class balance is not realistic. There will be some balance, I’m sure, here and there. And there will definitely be some points of imbalance–some of which may be considerable.

That’s okay.

Perfectly balanced games tend to be boring.

When your favorite class comes up on the “OP this Season” wheel, enjoy it and stop trying to ruin everyone else’s fun.

4 Likes
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[quote=“Negator-1124, post:1, topic:11233”]

I wouldn’t say most Necro’s who use Command Skeletons are using Rathma with Jesseths. They’re either using CS to proc the zodiac ring on zNecro builds, or they’re using CS for thorns still. Nobody plays Rathma once you have LoD gear for Necro, unless your just casual I guess. The problem with necro’s are the sets. They’ve been over run by LoD and the gear is now garbage for anything pushing higher than GRs 100 with 1000 pargons. Casual players are lucky to get to 1500 paragons in a season. This should be the target for builds IMO, maybe even 2000.

Pisses me off seeing people post builds with GR 130 (example) in the tile. They don’t even list the paragon they used to reach it. There’s nothing worse for new players to invest their time following a build online only to later find out it’s actually trash for pushing.

3 builds, solo, group, and support. Each set should fall into those categories.

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This is important in my opinion.

I started a seasonal DH and when checking the leaderboard, all of the first 10 or so used the exact same build with the exact same items: grenadier rapid fire. The top player might have been lucky (7 GRs ahead of the 2nd), but in any case, it was clear to me that for pushing purposes, that is THE “set” to use.

Didn’t end up playing it much, found UE sooner and it’s also a bit clumsy. Still, RF Grenade does a real good job at clearing up large packs and/or elites. Fun story, while I tend to struggle with goblin tuning due to playing slow (tough) difficulty… this rapid fire build just cleared a pack of about 15 goblins in 3 seconds. (On a difficulty where it took me 10 minutes or so to clear a rift.)

Note. I’m not sure about the need for multiple sets aimed at solo pushing, especially with inventory limitations. I kinda prefer the idea of (1) playing multiple classes for diversity and (2) each class fulfilling multiple roles via set diversity, e.g. support shield wizard (“Tassadar”).

As for abilities, I agree that it’s funny that some abilities massively dominate every other. Demon Hunter primaries? You may try Bolas leveling with the instant explode quiver, but really, just take the backflip ability for 3x200% damage. Your alternative is 1x145%. It’s like an IQ test. Wizard is the same: struggle on Hard, get Disintegrate, breeze through Master.
This is offset by legendaries applying extreme multipliers, such as 3x damage on multishot, which is a dominator to begin with.

TL, DR: I agree, it’s so imbalanced it’s funny.