800 Paragon Cap is Actually Perfect

General Discussion
21

no need

but another pseudo test we could run is taking a high paragon char and see the results of “with paragon” Vs “no paragon”

none of those represents how the game works

the only factor that can be considered as base is the base dmg range, averything else are just bucket multipliers over the dmg range
such multipliers can be obtained through different or several mechanics but this does not change their nature as a mere multiplier

the thing is, excluding sources of base dmg range bc it has a different nature, main stat is by far the biggest multiplier for most builds and the biggest boost for main stat is the “unlimited” paragon

so, in order to define the most relevant multiplier

15k main stat from paragon is 75k% dmg
but the shadow set, along with invoker and raiment, are anomalies, most sets multipliers dont go nearly as high

the reason gear rains from the sky is bc the game was, among other things, designed to have xp farming as it’s end so they wanted people to go directly to the relevant part of the game, the paragon farming

22

Since paragon did not exist when D3 was released (and never existed in D2), I highly doubt that was the original Developer’s vision for the game.

3 Likes
23

The original vision was likely leading people by the nose towards the (RM)AH. With its removal the gearing journey needed to be revamped. With no trading there’s really no other option than to make it short as a LOT of people don’t want to spend major time just getting a build going.

24

K. Since you won’t test it, I did. Your hypothesis is 15k main stat (3k Paragon) is 75k% damage. This should be the same as the Shadow set. I have 3554 Paragon on Season, so I did some runs. First with my Shadow Set and 554 Paragon points allocated, then Shadow Set with a different chest giving me 4 Piece bonus still and using 3554 Paragon.
Results:
Full Shadow/554P - GR100 in 4:37 - WestMarch/Hellrift maps - Channelling pylon - lotta lag.

4 Piece Shadow/3554P - GR100 hit like a wet noodle, GR90 hit like a wet noodle, GR80, slow but very doable, GR75 in 3:18 - Cemetary/Shrouded Moor maps - Power/Conduit/speed pylons - no lag and got 2 power potions.

One build, small sample, but big difference. Figured I would try it with another build, so I used UE with same parameters:

Full UE/554P - GR100 in 2:08 - Battlefield/halls of agony maps - Power/Shield/Conduit pylons.
GR110 in 3:14 - Spire map twice - Speed/Power Conduit

4 Piece UE/3554P -GR100 hit like a wet noodle, GR90 hit like a wet noodle, GR80 hit like a wet noodle, GR75 barely doable, GR70 in 8:26 - Arreat crater 2/Plague Tunnel/Halls of agony maps - Channeling/Speed Pylons.

Run this test with all 13 gear slots replaced with the 2nd best option and the disparity will be even more significant, even if I gave you 10,000 paragon.

From what I am seeing, Paragon is not as big a multiplier as you think. 6 Piece set is still way, way more important than 3000 Paragon. As I said, gear brings way, way, way more power than paragon.

Gear rains from the sky because power is directly tied to gear. There is no smooth gear progression. Either you have the BIS pieces or you don’t. You either destroy content or hit like a wet noodle. Having a lower drop rate means most players are trash and the lucky gear lottery winners are wrecking it. They massively increased the drop rates so this disparity wouldn’t occur for an unreasonable amount of time.

For the first few seasons, Paragon was well under 2000 for even the cheatiest of cheaters. By the time Paragon numbers became huge, gear had already been raining from the sky for several seasons.

1 Like
25

LOL. Surely you jest? MOST of the power comes from paragon. Has since that abomination was introduced to the game.

Groups will hit p800 within 4 hours of season start.

You’re lucky you’re on the PC version of the game…consoles are nerfed to the ground when it comes to levelling.

Sure, it can, but it’s rather uncommon. The ordinary player is nowhere near it. And that’ s probably ~95% of the playerbase.

You are only marginally right. You should quantify your statement with some more stricter conditions. If we are using logic here, then:

  1. If ordinary player, no chance of hell in getting to p800 in under 2 hours. 2. If pro player, in a top notch group, then yes, it is doable.

  2. is a very large subset of the playerbase, and 2. a very tiny subset.

To put it bluntly, most people can drive a car, very few can drive a F1 car competently (some may think they can, but they are dreaming).

Sorry, gonna call BS here. If all players have the same gear, then the 1 with the most paragon will nearly always win, at least if said player is competent. Paragon is critical to performance in this game. Let’s do a test - play naked (no gear). 1 player with 1 paragon, and another with 3000 paragon. See which One fares better.

26

It was 70 in 2 hours, 15 to paragon 800. And that’s not very fast. The argument I was replying to was that to reach 800 in 2-3 days would require 15+ hour playing per day, so at minimum 30 hours. That’s not driving a car, that’s riding a tricycle, uphill.

2 Likes
27

No one’s hitting Paragon 800 that quickly. Well, perhaps on the console where they can hack their stats and instantly go to GR150s. But on the PC, or legitimate players? Not even close.

I record the stats at the beginning of the season since Season 15. Even some of the numbers above other people have listed are exaggerated.

Season 15-28, excluding Season 22 & 28 on EU & NA. (I’m excluding Asia as there have been some exploits used on several seasons.)

Number of players to level to 70 in under 50 minutes: 5
Number of players to level to 70 in under 50 minutes more than once: 1
There are fewer than 100 players to ever hit 70 in under an hour, and fewer than a dozen to ever do it more than once. I can’t name a single SSF player in that list. In those 12 seasons, no one has ever hit 70 in under an hour more than 6 times. (In those seasons, only two players have ever leveled to 70 in under an hour even 6 times.)

With Season 22 & 28, multiple people hit 70 in under an hour. Season 28, 1000 players hit 70 in roughly 85 minutes, whereas it typically takes 2 hours for the first 1000 players. This is going to be what the future looks like once the Altar is made permanent in Season 30. Typically though, by that time, you’ll have under 100 players on NA, and 250 players on EU, who have hit 70.

Roughly around the 4 hour mark last season on EU, which is the most competitive server:

The highest clear in any of those was a 2 player GR80, and they had just gotten that. The bottom line is, the top players were barely over Paragon 400 by the 4 hour mark.

As far as Paragon 800, the top groups are hitting that roughly 7 hours into the season. I’m expecting the top SSF players to be there roughly 8-9 hours into the season. 15 hours to Paragon 800 should be doable by your top players, i.e. the players who will be competing for the leaderboard. 30 hours in, even your casual players will hit Paragon 800 by then. I’d agree with the other posters here, that you would have to play really inefficiently to not be Paragon 800 by then.

4 Likes
28

And I am gonna call BS here. If all players have the same paragon, and 1 has correctly rolled Primals, and the other has incorrectly rolled non-ancients, the one with Primals (if competent) is nearly always going to win against the one with incorrectly rolled non-ancients.

It is the same for both. If there is a huge disparity in gear or paragon, the one on the upside is going to have a huge advantage. Now as far as paragon goes, you have diminishing returns the higher you get. Look at the LBs. There are players with 6000 paragon above players with 10,000 paragon. The one thing that all the top players have in common is generally their gear is incredibly close.

Surely, you guys are jesting. If you went back to S1 with the gear that was available then and gave everyone 10,000 paragon, I would seriously doubt anyone is clearing GR100, much less GR150. With the insane power creep in the game now, players can easily clear GR100 with simply the base P800 (not the tweaked S29 version). The gear in this game adds way more power than a ton of main stat from paragon does.

As stated above, I easily crushed a GR110 with P554 on UE which is far from meta for a DH and far from the best build (Tal Wiz). Pick any build from S1 from any LB S1 and take 10,000 paragon. You won’t be doing GR100.

I am not saying paragon has little or no effect, I am saying far more power comes from the gear we have with massive multipliers all over the place than it does from even 50,000 main stat.

1 Like
29

On PC? An hour to get to 70. An hour to complete chapters 1-4 and get the 6 piece Haedrig’s gift. 4 man team grinding GR100 for 2 hours? Easily p800 imho. On console? no. On PC? Yes.

On console, I have people in my friends list in 4 man groups getting to clvl 70 in like just over an hour. Not joking.

Try that on console, solo. Ain’t gonna happen.

If they can lvl to clvl 70 in like 3 hours, yes. I’ve never been able to manage it that fast, but as I said, I play DH and i’ts One of, if not, the slowest character classes to clvl 70. Proof that Blizzard doesn’t get the game and has ZERO idea on how to balance it.

I never said that. But those with p10000 would probably have been clearing GR25 and those with p600 GR10, for the EXACT same gear.

Yes, gear makes the initial difference, but the difference between perfect primals and well rolled ancients is VERY minimal. Many seasons of being a top 10 DH player globally on PS4 has taught me this much.

30

I mean, I’ve posted before that it is possible to level to 70 on the console in under an hour:

Diablo 3 Console (PS5) - Solo Necro 1-70 in 60m, Season Start Conditions - YouTube

This season, with the Altar, it was about 48 minutes on the PlayStation. Not useful for Season 29, but come Season 30, definitely. And that actually beat my PC time. Now, as a DH? Of course not. But similar to the PC, you dual class. Let’s look at EU in Season 27 at the 75 minute mark:

https://i.imgur.com/V1NqIRK.png

I’ll fully admit it’s easier to level to 70 on the PC much easier than the console. But the same thing still applies on the PC as well. It’s 90% Necromancers leveling that quickly, or players carried by Necromancers. It’s one thing I’ve discussed before. If you want as efficient a start as possible, you need to be willing to put aside pride of starting as a specific class, and be willing to use all the tools available to you. Because while you’ll hit 70 as a Demon Hunter in a specific time, by the time you collect Haedrig’s Gift, I’ll be collecting Haedrig’s Gift on my Demon Hunter at roughly the same time. You have one class at 70, while I’ll have two.

This season, it should be even easier as well to hit 70 via Visions on the console, because they’re chalk full of elites. Not exactly what you want for any class except Necros. And for Necros, they’re exactly what you want. On the PC, you’d only want to run the Visions once.

If you can get Lord Greenstone’s Fan, they’re the second fastest class. Not as fast as Necros, but faster than the other classes because LGF is a beast. But I’ll fully admit it’s not an easy leveling process. I actually did level up to 70 on T6 in HC they entire way once before as a DH, and it was one of the most heart pounding experiences I’ve had in this game. Not suggesting it one bit, but was just seeing if it was possible.

Haedrig’s Gift tends to take most players roughly 2 hours to acquire. The fastest legitimate groups tend to be around 90 minutes. (I say legitimate, because some groups use bots or other players to run bounties for them. On the console, if a level 1 player runs bounties and you join them at level 70, you’ll get level 70 stuff from it).

1 Like
31

Just reduce all XP gain by 75% or so. Would make the lvling journey, for both standard lvls and paragon lvls, a bit more sensible.
Still super fast of course, but that is hard to change without an entirely new game I guess.

32

Man, you’d think at even half, some would get bored.

33

Does that include 4 hour pixel cleaning cycle for OLEDs?

34

Are we able to see that (the rank of people got to 70 first) in game? I tried looking at the leaderboards, but I couldn’t find it.

1 Like
35

Your first 70 achievement points will most likely be your first 70 levels. Every other achievement requires you to be in a Level 70 game. Not that you can’t get 70 achievement points before Level 70, but that would require a Level 70 carrying you. And at the beginning of the season (i.e. first 90 minutes), that’s most likely not happening. It also records a time stamp.

As an example, for Season 27:

(All times in Eastern):

On Asia, TongSu was the first player to hit Level 70 at 4:51:12 AM
On Europe, Lybrix was the first player to hit Level 70 at 11:44:48 AM
On Americas, VelaRUS was the first player to hit Level 70 at 8:51:47 PM

Lybrix is the only play to hit Level 70 in under 50 minutes more than once, in which he did it twice, once in Season 26, once in Season 27. As mentioned above, at the 75 minute mark, only 85 players had hit Level 70.

On Americas that season, only 9 players had reached Level 70 at the hour mark:
https://i.imgur.com/GoErpRg.png
Starting at the 30 minute mark, I check every 5 minutes up until the 75 minute mark, at which point I check every 15 minutes up until the Achievement Leaderboard has 1000 people at 70.
Dabooty (Player #10 in the above) hit Level 70 at 9:00:16 PM. Close, but he still didn’t make the hour cutoff.

Now, it is possible that the leaderboard could not record everything perfectly, but with everyone who streams, the time matches, with it only being 1-2 seconds off at worst.

EDIT
As far as dual classing your way to 70:

I recorded this today, doing the entire Season 29 Journey. Started Necro and switched to Wizard, completing Haedrig’s Gift at roughly 3h2m. No deaths, and everything kept within season mat confines. I’d probably add 15 minutes though to simulate finding a Vision, as I did take that approach. Still, 3h20m to a full Haedrig’s Gift as a wizard is fairly competitive.

(Technically, I over gambled at the start, but I would have gotten the Grasps of Essence within the 475. The very first run though, I restarted at around 2 mins in, as I actually whiffed. You don’t really have a large chance whiffing though, so I’m looking at a more realistic take, rather than a worst case scenario take.)

1 Like
36

OLED is king

Karikters

37

I recall that you have an OLED that you use when playing on console.

38

Eh, I’ve definitely had games running on OLED for plenty of hours before.
And not only when I fall asleep in front of the TV…

Burn-in is bad, but not that bad.

Probably the reason he think it is king. Which it is.

1 Like
39

Oh god, 3 hours leveling to 70. Oh god.

40

What’s with your OLED obsession?