We are comparing the relative power of LoD versus LoN builds.
Nor can the LoN rings be combined with ANY other set bonus. You do know that to get the LoN bonus from the ring set that it has to be your only set bonus.
See:
https://us.diablo3.com/en-us/item/litany-of-the-undaunted-Unique_Ring_015_x1
Legacy of Nightmares
The Wailing Host
(2) Set:
While this is your only Item Set bonus every Ancient item you have equipped increases your damage dealt by 750% and reduces your damage taken by 4%.
[/eyeroll]
Really? Really? You want to go down the āNo duh?ā hole?
Of course you canāt use LoN with other jewelry sets. But it doesnāt matter because LoN canāt be combined with any other jewelry sets regardless. It is mechanically impossible. LoN already takes up both rings, and there are no ājust the amuletā sets. So, why donāt you go prattle about irrelevant minutiae some place else.
LoN rings do not work with any other set bonus. That was my point. In contrast to what you wrote, I never said anything about combining LoN rings with another jewelry set. I spoke of any set bonus.
And at what point did you erroneously get the impression that I was suggesting LoN could be combined with sets? I simply pointed out that many of the popular offensive jewelry (emphasis added, since you clearly missed it) options are SET items and donāt work with LoD. So even if you do free up your ring slots, multiple classes donāt have anything useful to replace them with, which greatly diminishes the value of having those ring slots opened up in the first place.
some might have missed that you should not use LoD or LoN if you do not have the required dmg % and dmg reduction % on your class items āand ringsā to overcome setsā¦ the discussion about which of them is better āin a 4th cube slot threadā is pretty pointlessā¦ arguing about opinions is also pointlessā¦
-a lvl 100 bane of the trapped = 45,X% increased dmg (with condition)
-there are around 5 rings that increase your dmg above that ājust 2 useable for all classesā and around 7 that reduce incoming dmg ājust 1 useable for all classesā
will this debate end in we need more support items to get more value out of the cube and each slot?
if we ask our devs to implement the 4th slot we basically force them to adjust their ideas = add less powerful stuff to seasons
At this point, itās hard to define āoverpoweredā as anything other than ācan crush GR 150 with much less Paragon/main statā than other classes.
Iām not surprised that some of the talking points in this thread look remarkably similar to those used to argue that Barbs, and then DHs, were too strong, and that big nerfs were needed to knock them back in line. It represented then, as it represents now, a fundamental disconnect from the clear and obvious direction of the game in terms of class power and balance.
Adding the 4th Cube slot will not break non-Season play, nor will it provide endless diversity to stunted builds. But it will give players something to tinker with in non-Season play, and it may potentially boost under-performing builds by a tier or three. It might evenāGASP!ādo the same thing for builds that are already strong. But itās not going to propel a build that is capped at GR 135 to the stratosphere.
In other words:
Thatās an apt summary of his post. Note that the poster liking his posts is a known alt of his.
Totally agreed.
Gold Star/Trophy - Thatās the foundation of why I said it adds a new dimension. It wonāt break anything. 
Overpowered to me is when you waltz in with an unedited green set, none of the right weapons, no Mystic re-forger changes to the default stats given and do 110-120 straight away without looking like dying once, at under 200 paragons.
Iām not sure Iāve ever seen a build that does all that, but I get what youāre saying. Many builds in the past have been nerfed into the ground because they were clearing too high, too fast. For my own experience, Iām seeing quite a few Typhons and DMOs on the console leaderboard who are placing very high without even a single augment.
Maybe thatās just the 4th slot working its magic, maybe they know something I donāt. Maybe they just have more Paragon than I do. I donāt know, because you canāt see Paragon on PS4 leaderboards (not in any way Iāve found). But I bet weāre going to see them taken down a peg in the next patch.
As an example, I placed 161 at around P900 with my PoJ Monk, and I had only cleared 107. I just finished clearing 120 with my LoD Arcane Twister Wizard at P1020 and Iām still in the 300s. To me, that says Wizards have an advantage.
As to whether itās the 4th slotās fault or not? I couldnāt say. I like the idea of introducing new flexibility, but it needs to be balanced.
So according to this definition, what classās top build do you consider OP and what classās top build underpowered?
For classes that have cleared GR 150 in non-season, one can compare the lowest paragon player who has cleared GR 150. Wizards have only one player who has cleared GR 150 (that player had 14580 paragon) while DH have a player with 6882 paragon with a 13m9s GR 150 clear. Monks top clears aare GR 145.
Maybe balancing the game through both nerfs and biffs is appropriate.
What classes and builds benefit most from the 4th cube slot and which the least?
It seems that you suggest that it is an across the board power growth of 1-3 GRs.
What is the effect on group play?
GR Pushing in groups
Currently, both the EU and AS 4 man non-season leaderboards require GR 150 to be among the top 1000. In EU, a 4 man team needs to clear GR 150 in less than 9m32s to be ranked while on the AS leaderboard, it is 7m32s. I would suggest that a 4th cube slot has adverse consequences.
Regular Rifts in groups
Currently, players with relatively modest paragon levels and gear complete T16 with a certain alacrity. Adding even more power creep will make the highest torment levels trivial.
I for one have never advocated for ābig nerfsā to any OP build but a more precision scalpel approach. Overnerfs are a bad thing.
The developerās thoughts on game balance were posted earlier this year. Although I suspect the absolute GR numbers of their ideal target for classās top build has changed, I think fundamentally that the overall strategy remains the same as evidenced by several builds being nerfed due to their power in recent patches.
My point exactly. some people are measuring the statistics of a meta/group play against an average solo player and thatās just not realistic.
The stats I posted which you pointed out have never been seen would be overpowered. There are a few builds that came close like the Mundungu and the new sader set and the Bombardment changes, but they were not so drastic that they were doing 120 immediately. They had drastically more power than other sets Blizzard has been trying to balance out so they were nerfed.
I hear what you are saying, my Necro in Asia region (I play in all three regions) and the WD Mundungu in Americas are doing in the 100 region around the same paragons. Once you do high 90s paragons pile on quickly after 70 and that occurs without the 4th slot. If I was to suggest an advantage it would definitely be for the necro. The necro is by far the easiest to get one-shot for squishiness so itās a pleasant change that it can kill easier than it can be killed. Itās become a HC contender as a result so thatās not a bad thing.
Sets not classes. But that has been stated by Blizzard and many on these forums anyway. for example, the Mundungu set is higher than the other WD sets. The WW Barb set is higher than the others, so on and so forth. what is based on the devās desireās to balance is pretty much in line with what I suggest. The sets need levelling and everyone has been saying that for some time.
Raise the others up - no more nerfing.
to me it renders all other items on that specific slot useless compared to itā¦ to me it pushes ānoobsā to a lvl they do not even understand = they do not use the dmg buffed skillsā¦
would not use console as reference for whats possible but okā¦ im paragon 1100+ and did no single push on my 3 classes cuz it got pointless for me and ive no interest to grind paragonā¦
already stated but i would say it depends on how much and how high the % on the support legendaries for each class areā¦
ānecroā OP
āwizardā UP twister is ok dmg but no real movementspeed and LAAG
I can agree with that. My Necromancer is nowhere near as powerful as my Wizard, but I can see there is potential to close that gap. Some of the variance Iām seeing is simply down to preference and playstyle; I am much happier with a rootānāshoot build than I am trying to weave through crowds of enemies looking for a payout on a perfect pack. So I might be a little biased there.
So far, Masquerade Bone Spear has been the only build Iāve liked for the Necromancer. They all die too easily and I can never push high enough. Maybe thatās also due to my playstyle. Couldnāt say. I can say that it definitely benefits big from a 4th slot.
Exactly! - which is why that kind of set does not exist 
Yeah, I see that a lot here. I do play both versions, but this season has been so badly plagued by disconnects that I just gave up on PC and went full-bore console. You can bet that my build choices would change if I had to go PC: All that zipping around with PoJ would give me carpal tunnel inside an hour. Ouch.
I corrected it to read āclassās top buildā.
In the game balance blog post, Blizzard stated that both nerfs and buffs will be employed to balance the game. Which is in direct opposition to your comment:
I definitely agree that we need to improve both balance between classes and within a class.
No question about that.
A few things to note about console vs PC comparisons. Some skills and items function differently between the two platforms. For example, the Barbarian Leap skill has a much shorter cooldown on console, and back in the day, certain EQ/Slam builds used to be much stronger there (and probably still are). In addition, the difference in control scheme (analog sticks vs mouse and keyboard) benefits some builds more than others, and may make certain build variants more appealing. Thereās also the Nephalem Glory mechanic, which is a whole other can of worms.
Iām not sure if any of this applies to Typhonās. I only mention it because comparing console to PC in terms of builds and clears can be misleading due to the above, and that compiles with the issues youāve already mentioned (canāt see Paragon, etc).
Correct. Across all classes, we have a decent equilibrium where one or two top builds are all within spitting distance of each other. Some classes and sets still need more attention than others, but at this point, ābalanceā can be achieved by buffing certain under-performing sets and items.
All valid points, which is why I am quick to point out when I am sharing an experience had on the console version. I donāt want to mislead anyone.
On the subject of the sticks versus the mouse, I can see either control scheme having situational benefits. The Necromancer Bone Spear build and the Arcane Twister Wizard build are specific examples where selective targeting is more difficult -if not impossible- on the console, whereas itās as easy as point-and-click on the PC. There are many times in which I would much rather be able to selectively target a troublesome elite and drag all the other enemies onto it with a twister, rather than wait for them all to die out so I can hit my target lock and finish him off. Thatās only one example.
The other example that floats to the top of my mind is the PoJ Tempest Rush Monk. As I pointed out earlier, I would much rather play that build with a PS4 controller than ever try to control that build with a mouse. Iād be knocking things off my desk left and right, and I already have some motor control issues with my mouse arm as it is. The constant doubling-back in order to deal with enemies is a lot easier for me to control that way versus a mouse.
So I definitely agree that console experiences != PC, and should not be used as a direct comparison. I hope I have been transparent enough about that during the points Iāve provided. I would provide more PC experiences and opinions if I could stay logged in for longer than 30s.
Here is the data from the current non-season era. As you can see, there are significant differences for top solo clears dependent on class. Of note, the top monk clear is GR 145 while for DH it is GR 150 in about 9 minutes.
There are also large differences in the number of players who cleared GR 141 and above.
| Class | Non-Season GR 150 Clears | Top GR 150 Clear Time | Lowest Paragon GR 150 Clear | Non-Season GR ā„141 Clears |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Barbarian | 1 | 14m16s | 13083 (14m16s) | 62 |
| Crusader | 28 | 10m21s | 9206 (12m25s) | 244 |
| Demon Hunter | 95 | 9m5s | 6882 (13m9s) | 480 |
| Monk | 0 (Top GR145) | N/A | N/A | 30 |
| Necromancer | 31 | 11m46 | 8868 (14m46s) | 118 |
| Wizard | 1 | 14m41s | 14580 (14m41s) | 14 |
| Witch Doctor | 30 | 11m22 | 7901 (14m51s) | 284 |
Data sources:
http://ranks.zeroempathy.org/e13