10 year break from D3. Here's what I think about it now!

No, again, I know I editted in but the question is, why should you, who took a 10 year break from the game be competing with people who’ve been playing for that 10 year span?

This is what non season does. But your idea, unless you’re saying that your paragon limit only applies to season, which also makes no sense, would cause you to be competing with people that have played tons and tons more than you.

You took a 10 year break, and all of sudden, you want to be treated the same as people who didn’t? Talk about unfair, lol.

Not saying Idolis is like that, but there are people out there who have no intention of changing their mind regardless of how much you prove them wrong or debunk them. They’re willing to die on their hill despite death being inevitable. Some do it because they’re just plain stubborn and don’t like to admit they made a mistake in general. Some do it because they’re ignorant and don’t know any better. And some do it because they have an issue with the opposition and have no intention of giving them the satisfaction.

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What does my personal competitiveness have to do with anything? This isn’t about me. This is about what changes I think would help ameliorate the stated problems I outlined in the OP and why I think they would help to improve the playability of the game overall.

What does this even matter when there’s seasonal play? Everyone starts off the same each season - with nothing. I’m also not sure where you’re getting the “wanted to be treated” part from. Again, this isn’t about me. It’s about the gameplay and game design.

You’re not being honest again.

Whether you intend to or not, and I’m talking the general you, which could or could not apply to you, but I’ll rephase…

What you’re asking is for people who’ve taken 10 year breaks from the game to compete with people who haven’t in non season. And also asking for people who’ve put 300 hours into the game to not have to grind any more than that which hurts people who wish to put more time in the game.

In other words, those people are being selfish because their play time should be the baseline and to hell with everyone else.


As an example, I’ve got 7000+ hours in this game total. Tell me why 6700 more hours shouldn’t matter, please, and make it make sense.

I assure you, I’m being very honest :smile:

That’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking that the game mechanics that led to the current power creep and gameplay imbalance be recalibrated into something a little more sane.

Nope. There’s still a grind. There’s just more of a point to it now. I don’t know how many more times I can tell you there’s still a grind. Diablo 2 has a max level. Do you think Diablo 2 doesn’t have an endgame grind?

I’m actually doing this because “to hell with everyone else” is the opposite of what I’m feeling. In fact, I want the expert players especially to have their skills rewarded.

Their skill is rewarded.

Again, check out this thread…

Top Adjusted Clear for each class so far in Season 28 - General Discussion - Diablo 3 Forums (blizzard.com)

It’s exactly what your looking for.

The baseline is 5000 paragon, but if you’re paragon is lower, it’ll adjust to the point, that it’ll be equivalent to 5000 and tell you what GR Tier you should be clearing in a site that link toward the end of the thread.

The site was broken when I tried to use it, but the point is paragon doesn’t matter as much as you think it does.

Good point. I can tell you for a fact that I am part of that theoretical 99.99% of the playerbase who gave up on the game a long time ago and didn’t really have any plans to revisit the game until recently. That’s a testament to how good of an impression Diablo 4 made on me.

Cool, thanks for reading!

As an example, Rage, a forumite that kept up with “State of the Sets” threads, did a calculation of my GR 150 clear with the Nat’s set at 2750 paragon and around 12 minute time.

My adjusted clear at the time was 154 while the top adjusted clear was 157. Meaning their was a 3 GR difference between my time and the top player with that set. Some of that is a difference in skill and some is a difference in gear. But the calculations adjust us both to 5000 paragon.

3 GR’s is nothing when it just depends on paragon and gear and skill can make up that difference.

Um, the fact that this person has to do math in order to make sense of the leaderboards and put them into context is indicative of the problem here lol.

I think your example proves my point more than it proves yours, to be honest.

The point is, paragon doesn’t matter as much as you think it does and math is math whether the players do it or Blizzard does.

Just sayin’.

A few questions -

  1. If Paragon doesn’t matter as much as I think it does, then why is it “unfair” according to you that I think capping it is a good idea?

  2. If Paragon doesn’t matter as much as I think it does, then why are you okay with an endgame grind that serves to work towards a form of progress that “doesn’t matter”? Seems like a waste of time.

  3. Diablo 2 has a max level. Do you think the D2 endgame grind meta is therefore weak?

Because, time should matter. Paragon doesn’t but time should and paragon in this game is a measure of time in a sense. You think time shouldn’t matter and I think it should, that’s where our opinions separate.

See the above.

Diablo 2 is a different game and also in d2 not everyone makes it to level 99, but the grind is more about finding items than it is grinding putting in time to reach 99.

Of course your idea doesn’t do anything about item rarity so I don’t see where your comparison with D2 makes sense in anyway at all.


To put it another way, for your comparison to make, my character at nearly 450 hours put into the game, if it was D2, I should have nearly a complete build, maybe 3/4 of the way their.

While you at 300 hours should maybe have half a build, maybe.

Yeah, that’s the perfect game right there./sarcasm

Yes I know time should matter. That’s why I emphasized that point earlier.

See here :point_up_2:

I spent a lot of words trying to convey the message that paragon is kinda pointless after a certain level. Whether you realize it or not, you’ve been making that point too. The only difference between you and me is that I want to do something about it and you are fine with the status quo. That’s entirely your right, but I want to emphasize that I want the discussion to stick to whether or not the suggested fixes do anything about the stated problems, not whether or not something is fair or not.

Yes, and Diablo 3 should be about finding items and tweaking your build, not an endless grind for merely the sake of leveling. This is at the core of ARPGs.

Don’t you think finding items is a better gameplay mechanic than simply leveling up one attribute point at a time?

The comparison is relevant because I’m trying to align the design goals and maximize player enjoyment per unit of time. Just because I didn’t mention item rarity doesn’t mean it’s not part of the equation too.

To put it another way, for your comparison to make, my character at nearly 450 hours put into the game, if it was D2, I should have nearly a complete build, maybe 3/4 of the way their.

While you at 300 hours should maybe have half a build, maybe.

Yeah, that’s the perfect game right there./sarcasm

I think, a game should be about tweaking gear and time mattering. You tweak gear in Diablo 3. Why do you think everyone wants all Primals? But also, the time it takes to get that gear should also equal power. That’s D3.


And as I illustrated earlier, in D3, paragon doesn’t matter as much as gear and skill. But it’s a difference and it should be.

I do too, which is why I wrote this essay. I don’t want to waste the players’ time with pointless endeavors.

Then why are you okay with maintaining a system that overemphasizes grinding paragon and underemphasizes itemization and talent spec?

By the way, stating that paragon doesn’t matter, but it’s still a difference and it should be are two contradictory themes. You can’t have it both ways.

Here’s what your idea does though.

You make time in game mean absolutely nothing. There’s a difference between time mattering and it not mattering at all.

So no, I’m not having it both ways. I’m saying in this game paragon and time doesn’t matter as much as you think it does and you want it matter even less.

That’s where you lose me. You think, well 8000 paragon is tons better than 5000 and 5000 is tons better than 3000, when it just isn’t. Every 5 GR tiers you have to roughly double your damage. Let me tell you, 5000 isn’t 2X stronger than 3000 and 8000 isn’t 2X stronger than 5000. It just doesn’t work that way.

To put it another way…

My season character 3080 paragon with pretty much maxed out gear has about 30,000 mainstat (that’s with augments and everything. While my non season with 4270 and maxed out gear has about 36,000 mainstat (I’d have to check to make sure). That’s only a 20% increase in damage. A GR Tier is worth around 17.5 percent damage. So the difference in my season and non season character minus the theme is just over 1 GR Tier. Yeah, that’s a hell of a difference right there. lol

But that 1200 more paragon with about 20X as much time put in does matter if only slightly, which is better than it not mattering at all which it would with your idea.

That’s not what it does.

Time spent grinding paragon - still applicable.
Time spent grinding items - still applicable.

It matters LESS with your idea and as I keep saying, it already matters very little. 1 GR Tier at around 6600 more hours of play time, you don’t see how that much time should make a difference?

I mean, your idea basically makes that 6600 more hours practically pointless when it already isn’t worth much.

Then I ask you again -

The current state of Diablo 3 very strongly emphasizes the action of grinding paragon at end game. It does this because it’s the only thing left to do. This is an action that in your analysis, “isn’t worth much”.

Is it good game design for an ARPG to steer players’ energy into a progression path that “isn’t worth much”? Yes or no.