To be clear this a post from me complaining about the new proposed paragon skill board for diablo 4. lol Before we all set our Hype trains to = Choo, please take a moment to watch this video as it helps give context to what I’m sayin.
The question I pose to you guys is; Do you think the complicated paragon board does not follow one of the core elements that make diablo what it is? simplicity?
Folks will be spending lots of time looking at an options window…
It looks like building again over a bad base: the D3 paragon.
D4 devs have all possible variants of skill customization in front of their eyes, they have an easy time choosing what’s the best fit for the game. The “no-skill-tree” customization brought boring and completely replaceable and forgettable chars in D3. The huge passive skill tree of PoE was a kind of overreaction to that lack of a skill tree in D3, it brought back the customization, but exacerbated the chaotic nature of that game, relegating it to a niche type of player: it’s the kind of overreaction to a malfunctioning system, but not one to build from the ground up. The Paragon of D3 exacerbated the common issue of latest Blizzard games, where the trip doesn’t matter, the beefy stuff only starts at max level (despite of the lack of Paragon, WoW suffers from the same issue).
With all this in mind, it’s clear that the right choice is a system that starts from level 1, or at least from early enough, has a moderate depth, and it’s properly organized. I don’t get why one has forcefully need to reach max level, as if it were a non written dogma anyone has to comply with. D2 was different in that regard, gave it a bit more of personality, and didn’t result any bad, no idea why refraining from that feature in order to adopt the same “standarized” structure of 99% games out there if it doesn’t bring any benefit.
The D2 skill tree was the right one to build over. It doesn’t have any great flaw, and it can accept all the good things the other systems have without doubling down on their issues. It doesn’t need to be a carbon copy of it, it can be evolved, improved, and made better instead of choosing a starting point that wasn’t particularly celebrated and with clear issues in its basic idea. Not the kind of things I’d think about for endgame.
I’m not particularly “sold” on Paragon as a system, but I do understand why it was tacked on in D3 later. It was designed to expand choices in a limited level design capped at a much lower value, (level 50 instead of 99) thus giving a player the feeling of “progression” when the original progression has ended.
That said, it’s all going to come down to what direction they want the game to take in the future… open-ended, or “end game”? The introduction of Paragon itself implies that they want the player to continue to progress- so obviously the choice is “open-ended”, but why not just increase levels and abilities/skills with that? What’s the difference in arguments of “power creep”, when it’s all essentially the same conclusion, whether by level or by incrementally increased abilities using a pretty little set of circles that one checks off along the way?
It’s either 6 or a half-dozen, IMO. Same eventual conclusion, just two different ways of reaching and demonstrating that same conclusion. Either way, they’re going to have to make a choice as to what sort of system they want to use… but combining a limited-level system with Paragon is somewhat absurd. Why not just use Paragon as “the” level system, and take out the Number Simulator altogether, then? Or drop Paragon as an idea, and keep the level system but expands its numbers?
I dunno what the “right” choice would be, but I do know it’s just the same problem with a different coat of paint to make it look newer.
As a side note, a couple of the most innovative systems I’ve ever seen in video games was Bethesda’s implementation of “progression” of skills with usage (prior to Skyrim), and also the skill system which was included with The Secret World (probably the best feature of the game, aside from the stories) where an open range of choice was given and where a broad range of class combination was made possible as well.
Granted, trying to combine those skill systems would be a tedious endeavor, but I just found them both worthy of note.
In any case, you’re always going to have people who associate “value” and “progression” with a set of numbers… it’s inevitable. It’s how almost everyone in the world thinks of how they’re progressing in life, bigger numbers means you’re further ahead than others.
Given that consideration, I don’t understand the aversion companies have with ever-increasing “levels” to measure them by, granted they increase challenge requirements commensurate to them.
What do you mean by simplicity? Diablo 2 is very far from being simple or easy. Diablo 3 is much more simple tho, there is realy no depth in anything. New paragon board sytem looks great because it gives you stuff to do to improve on your character in future after you level up. Diablo 2 fails at that greatly.
Diablo 3 fails at that also tho, they had good idea with paragon system but itis very shallow. There is really not feeling of choice you are making. Choice you cant revert easily. And things you get from it are not really game changing. You levep up few paragon and you can distribute +1 str +1dex and 0,5 frw. Boring… It doesnt change how you play, its basicly just +power.
I want to see more complicated system with more mportant choices changing how you play, making you different than others. Even if only slightly.
I would also like to see some kind of system where using certain weapons or skills makes you better at them over time.
Lets say you will start using polearms with barbarian at +0% increased attack speed and idk every 1000 monsters killed will increase attack speed with polearms by 1%. It would be capped of course after you reach max proficienci. If you would stop using polearms, your mastery will decrease slightly over time. Or Sorceress could lower mana cost over time if you use skill frequently.
I would like to have some kind if system like that which makes you better at what you do often. I loved that in oblivion and Skyrim.
how a good game diferentiates itself from the poor ones by being simple on the surface but deep once you get into things.
It looks like the paragon board is an attempt to make things complicated artificially. and they have it start at level 50 to act as the deepness…
Folks will be literally looking at an open window that blocks the actual gameplay.
Can’t imagine folks will be tuning into youtube or twitch to watch a guy talk about the stat screen. lol
just ask any youtuber to look at his analytics for the video - any time folks start blabbing about skill point and this-and-that folks are clicking off lol…
going to be the same with the window…
heck even with the inventory AND cube open (on K&M) you can still see the game in the back. Not with controller however.
not even going to talk about how the Axe graphic looks like it’s trying to escape off the stat card with the huge damage numbers
Essentially what the OP is saying here is Paragon is just another way to look “complex” but it’s all really simple once you start looking under the hood.
As I said earlier, same system but with a fresh coat of paint.
Just like they are now? Majority of D2 builds require high level. I mean, if you dont want to invest time into game and just finish it, you probably dont need paragon board.
Also you talk about it as negative thing. I think its opposite, people always want what they cannot get easily. Thats the core drive of diablo 2.
Edit: nvm i understood the window reference wrongly probably.
Agree. It’s not “innovative” in the slightest. So why bother changing it at all?
Because flashies and shinies is pretty much what it boils down to, IMO. There’s nothing “new” about it, either way you’ve got a system of progression measured by numbers, just a bit more granular than before.
They originally had a literal tree as the skill tree (as pictured in the link below), however apparently they got feedback saying it did not offer enough choice.
At first glance the tree screenshot “looks” cooler imo and i imagine it would be closer to d2 in nature.
but it seems as if they want to get all those d3 players to move to d4 and the d2 players to continue on here instead. that’s just what it appears…optically.
Remember Just because Brevik said he used a mother test. If he mother could play it then it would pass. Sorry that won’t float it for Blizz because Brevik is not in charge of D4 nor will his test hold up for it. You want simple then either stay with D2 or play D3 for the real simple game.
Besides D4’s paragon board blog left more questions to be answered.
1.) Does it have a limit?
2.) If it doesn’t have a limit then how are you gonna combat the problem if power creep due to unlimited paragon?
3.) Will D4’s paragon board have other customizable options that are not about increasing our combat power? (think mounts, cosmetics)
4.) Is there a limit to the amount of boards that we can have attached to the main board?
5.) Does each gate have its own set of boards?
6.) Do we have to unlock the boards that attach to the main board?
7.) Is account wide or character bound?
If it is unlimited but still can control the power by using diminishing returns. Meaning after a certain amount of points spent it will take more and more paragon points to unlock the next node.
If it is limited then I would say that it shouldn’t be account wide due to making it real easy to unlock all paragon points on one character. Then just get the next character to level 50 and you will be able to spend all of the points. This would mean that you never have to progress in the paragon board beyond that one time.
I would also say don’t worry about it just yet. Wait till we learn more about it down the road possibly some time next year.
Super excited for the new system. Think it adds progression over time which would be great. A game with no end or limit for difficulty would be interesting, and a system like this would go along well.
Its all same stuff just by different names or interface to trick u into thinking its not same thing. You attack stuff and it take some amount of time to kill while it attack u back and u take some amount of time to kill. Pvm in rpg hasnt really changed much since like super mario rpg.
When the internet got fast enough some games let u fight other players and things got interesting again. Doesnt matter what they call the new rpg it either has pvp support or file into the stone age category
