Werebear weak now in PTR+other features

Hello.

First of all i want to say that im very pleased with what you did to werewolf and throwbarbarian. Please dont change that. Its perfect how it is at this pre ladder PTR.
Loads of build vaerity and not OP.

However:
Werebear is underperforming now.
Ref patch notes:

Werebear

  • Werebear now only uses the new attack speed calculation that was originally introduced in the PTR
  • Raised Werebear attack speed cap from +75% to +150%
  • Damage bonus per level increased from 8% to 15%
  • Base defense value increased from 25% to 40%
  • Defense bonus per level increased from 6% to 10%
  • Cannot be interrupted while performing attacks or skills

Maul

  • Now grants +3% attack speed per charge

This basicly means:
For HTH (Fists) and BOW max FPA is:
6 at 129 EIAS

For STF (2handed mauls, axes, polearms and staffs max FPA is:
6 at 143 EIAS

For 1HS (1 handed swinging wepons, all exept javelins and knives) max FPA is:
7 at 138 EIAS

For XBW (crossbows max FPA is:
7 at 150 EIAS

For 2HS (2 handed swing max FPA is:
8 at 134 EIAS

For 2HT (2 handed thrust max FPA is:
9 at 131 EIAS

We used to be able to reach 4 frames with fireclaw and maulers before with -30wsm 1 handed sword(110 WEP ias) and -10 WSM polearms(110 wep ias + 10gear ias, or 120wep ias).
This had around 16-22k fire damage fireclaw depending on build. Maul had almost none damge due to the wepons needed 110+ ias.

I checked the changed fireclaw base damage and syntenergies on my lvl 92 pvp fireclawer build and it had like 800 fire damage increase, From 17k to 17,8k…

This ment we could achieve max attack speed, yet running forexample high fcr equipment on the side.

Some went down to 5 frame and ran eth tombreaver. Running like 12-14k firedamge in combination with 10-12k physical damage.

(we are btw talking top notch endgame build here).

Now with 6, 7, 8 or 9 frames attack we are very slow. Not only that we need immense attackspeed to even reach theese frames as we usually dont have any Skill-IAS on werebear.
Example on some really fast bases:
Phaseblade:
Last EIAS breakpoint: 138 EIAS for 7 FPA attack.
IAS needed = Ceiling(120*(138-0+(-30))/(120-(138-0+(-30)))) = 1080 ias needed!

Oki, lets say we really want to reach the pathetic slow 7fpa attack and use a faith merc with lvl 15 fana:
IAS needed = Ceiling(120*(138-34+(-30))/(120-(138-34+(-30)))) = 194 ias needed!

Okay, so you added 3% skill-ias to each maul charge…
Optainable ChargeLevel of Maul = Slvl/2+3
Okay, lets say we actually hit the enemy 10 times with our slow attack, and he by some miracle still aint dead we achieve a maul charge lvl of: 10.
This equals 30 SIAS. (the faith had 34 SIAS and this got us nowhere, so we need to use both faith and maul for 64 SIAS).

No1 wants to needing so much time to achieve a full attackspeed either ur a pvp’er or a pvm’er.

IAS needed = Ceiling(120*(138-64+(-30))/(120-(138-64+(-30)))) = 70 ias needed!
This is even quite a lot ias needed. But ofc obtainable… But we are here talking about a single target attack, which can be blocked, needs to roll a successfull hitchance formula as well is a melee attack and has a range of 2 and on the side aint any particular impressfull when it comes to damage.

Adding a 7% Enhanced damage pr skill level ends up beeing only a few % increase of total damage boost on most builds. But we have a ruined DPS due to the low attackspeed. Remember hits has chance to roll chance to cast spells, crushing blow, open wounds which has to be considered as well.

The fireclaw skill is basicly ruined, cause even werewolf with their high skill ias can never break the max FPA caps. So they are stuck on 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 fpa based on wepon class.

I know the patch notes said that u wanted to make a slower but unstoppable force to be recon with out of the werebear, but current state its a “force” to ignored…

However there is pretty simple fix to this… Some A1 attacks has a custom animation speed.
Existing Examples:
Assassin using claws standard attack has 208 animspeed. 11 baseframes.
Vampire(trang oul’s set) standard attack has 178 animspeed. 14 baseframes.

So, to make a simple change, without touching all the other druid related stuff why dont you just make a custom animation speed for characters transformed into werebear?

Lets say you make its animspeed: 456 instead of 256.
Then you need 114 EIAS to reach 4 frames.
Based on examples above you saw how hard it is to achieve theese EIAS on a werebear.

And 150 EIAS will still be at 4 frames for werebear then.
Ceiling(19 x 256 / floor(456 x (100+150) / 100))-1 = 4

However, if the werebear decide to ditch its shield to use both hands attacking with a wepon in catergory STF (staff, polearm, 2 handed axe, 2 handed maul) he can achieve an 3 fpa attack on 139 EIAS which will be his last breakpoint.

He may also reach 3 frames with BOW, at the cost of rangeadders and damage.
At EIAS break 125.

For me you may buff him more. But its up to you.
I also advice you to change syntenergies for fireclaw into: Fissure + Volcano, instead of Firestorm + Moulten boulder, due to build mechanics of having a backup ranged attack or 2. As well as its still an underperfoming attack. Either add another syntenergy or buff its base damage.

Ofc you do what you feel is right, i just wanted to let you know people are sad about werebear beeing so inzane slow now, as well as giving you an solution. Werebear used to have custom calculated animation speed, so im sure that wont bring forward any bugs by chaning animspeed of him.

And while we are at it there are two cool shapeshifters that could be fun and new content to make more viable as shapeshifter builds:

  • Vampire(trang oul set):
    Could be fun to combine this with poison dagger, only usable by necromancers. Buffing his animation speed, and possible baseframe as well so that he can reach a little higher FPA, as well as adding enchant on trang oul’s when full set could be a cool new build.
    Blaze would be cool too via full trang set :slight_smile:

  • Bone fetish(delerium) :
    Buffing his baseframe, or animation speed so that he reaches faster FPA. I dno what skills he can use per today while in that form, but poison dagger, zeal, berserk, possible even charge would be cool. As well as maby giving him 5ctc amplify damage or some cool aura such as vigor could be cool as well, but that may be stretching it to far^^
    It would also be more used if delerium had a noclass delerium skill, instead of 1 or 2% ctc delerium, and make sure duration of delerium spell is high enough for it to last a while. Helm is such an important slot, that it would be nice to precast it from forexample inventory, cube or stash.

Last point i wanna adress:
Barbarian using wolfhowl used to be able to reach 4 or 5 frames if gear was correct for this. However now with the new formula he reach maximum 6 or 7, but it will require a lot of IAS to reach that. The easiest and best way to make this helm somewhat viable as a funclass build would be to add fury skill as a noclass skill into the helmet.

Best Regards
Gel87

11 Likes

bump
The issue here is as important as the lack of a WW fix.

2 Likes

less sheet dmg, but now uninterruptible and tankier. does it compensate? Compare your life wearbear toon to the PTR version of him. It’s the only way to make a good test.

I did compare.
My fireclaw.
I have 800 more damge, and 3-4 slower fpa.

And then you think of yes, but now werebear has much ias.

Oki, so we pick the fastest base we possible can:
Phaseblade(-30wsm)

Grief has much physical damage to achieve the most of the “compensated damage”.
Werebear now have 7% more pr lvl.
My gear had:
9 to shape skills
12 to all/druid skills.

I had 1 base werebear.
1 + 9 + 12 = 22 skills.
Old: 228 = 176%
New: 22
15 = 330%

Old fireclaw damage and FPA:
17000fire dmg
30 physcal base damage, lets say 156str. 176% ed.
30*(1+((156+176)/100)) = 129.
4 fpa (6,25 attacks per second)
DPS: 17129 * 6,25 = 107056

New fireclaw damage:
17800 fire dmg
430 * (1+((156+330)/100)) = 2519
40 ias = 13 fpa attack. (we need same room to get 99fcr teleport and shockwave)
25/13 = 1,92

(17800+2519) * 1,92 = 39012 dps (a few more since grief has 20% deadly strike)

3 Likes

wtf is a toon?
20 char

We pretty much need Maul to get that attack speed going in every WB build I guess. Leveling is so much fun tho, no fear of death at all, would recomend for HC players. AR is going to be another issue, if IAS calculation remains.

1 Like

Hopefully this gets addressed before the launch of 2.4.

2 Likes

I think he’s actually quite strong. Does the werebear attack slower? Yes. Should they give him maybe 7 frame attack speed instead of 8-9 - yea. Any more - no. The werewolf is the fast attacker, the werebear is the slow attacker that is tanky as hell.

From all the videos i’ve seen - his fireclaws + melee attacks absolutely rip monsters to shreds. He’s for sure slower than the werewolf, but he’s so much tankier to compensate.

1 Like

Does a Werebear attack slower? Not with a fast weapon. We’ve been having 4-5 fpa for years. If someone wants a fantasy of a slow hitting bear, just go grab a slow hitting weapon - but now you can be semi-effective with it.
Let the people who have been playing their FC werebears for years with their fast weapons keep the possibility of reaching fast frames.

1 Like

It attacks much slower, does much more damage, can’t have its attacks interrupted and has insane defense. Take a look at you werebear youtube videos. It satisfies a different fantasy.

Now that i think of it WB realy dose not have anything aside from huge dmg and insane tankyness. They don’t even get AR from any source, which if they remain slow is madatory in landing hits. WW gets AR and IAS from the skill itself, Fury animation was also spead up. If WW gets more IAS than WB should get more AR.

1 Like

I’m saying it can be both. It can be a mauler, it can be a fire claw. They just need to unnerf the attack speed.

2 Likes

Okay i try to explain this better, i will go in dept even though it to late for that to be smart xD

Pvm aspect:
Fireclaw bear in pvm used to have 5fpa attack… They used a eth tombreaver who also adds great ammount of resiststances, mf and damage to undeads ergo its name.

They ran maul in combi with fireclaw and HoW. Typical gear(im gonna compare perf items to make it easier for myself) :
Eth tombreaver 90ias/360%/60@

Cryptic axe:
91average damage base * 1,5 eth * 4,6 = 627 average damage.
Jalals
Strings
Highlord
Gores
Enigma
Loh
Raven
Dual leech / adds
Torch
Annie
Cta + spirit
Some small charms depending on needs.
Lets say 7 skillers.
= 10 all/druid skills
= 9 shape skills

Skilling:
20fireclaw, firestorm, moulten, fissure, volcano.
1 oak and how.
1 werewolf
1 lycan
1 werebear
4 maul
1 shockwave
We are now lvl 99(110 skills used)

= 15k firedamage.
If fully charged maul:
290% ed + 183 + 90% = 563% ed.
Lets assume 200str = 200% ed.
Lets assume lvl 20 might aura = 230% ed
Deadly strike: 52%.

627*(1+((563+200+230)/100)) * 1,52 = 10416 average physical damage vs none demons/none undead enemies.

627*(1+((563+200+230+350)/100)) * 1,52 = 13752 vs demons.

627*(14((563+200+230+230)/100)) * 1,52 = 12608 vs undead.

(10416+13752+12608)/3 = 12258 average physical damage.

So 12k average physic + 15k average fire
5 attacks per second.
27258 * 5 = 136290 dps.

You run an infinity merc to boost hit chance and fire dmg. Or an eth reapers merc.

PTR werebear:

We have 40 more skills to buff physical damage, and i dont know the new formula for fireclaw, but based on my experience it lands around 800 higher.
So we just put 16k fire dmg to be on the good side.

So we put:
20 maul
20 werebear
6 HoW

Werebear now have 15% ed
Maul now have 30% ed (and more ar%)
Maul also have 3sias pr level.
Optainable ChargeLevel of Maul = Slvl/2+3

Lvl 39 werebear = 39 * 15 = 585
Lvl 39 maul = 339 = 117 sias
(need 75 ias for thunder maul, which we have)
Lvl 39 maul = 39/2+3 = 22 charged possible.
22
30+70 = 730% ed.
How = 125% ed.
Total skill ed = 585+125+730 = 1340% ed.

Lets assume perf eth botd thunder maul.
Thunde maul base average dmg = 106,5
106,5 * 1,5 * 5,15 = 822 average dmg.
We assume same str and might aura:
822*(1+((1340+200+230)/100))1,52 = 23364 average dmg vs none demon.
594
(1+((1340+200+230+350)/100))*1,52 = 28362 vs demons.

(23364+28362)/2 = 25863 average physical dmg.

25863 * (25/6) = 107762 dps.

So yes he hit hard, yet he still have lower dps than before. And immagine how slow he will hit before maul… He is basicly at -20 eias. And will graduatly win 3 eias each hit and move true every breakpoint there is prior to to reaching max breakpoint.
I once heard that 26 frames is the slowest you can go with slow, but my memory May Fail me on that one.
Ceiling(17256/floor(256(100-20)/100))-1 = hei 23 fpa attack is what he starts on.

Oki thats the pvm section…
In pvm you can charge up maul. In pvp you cant. You will be dead 3 times over prior to charging it up…

Pvp:
In pvp. Mobility, speed, and actually landing hits is crucial vs enemies that quickly tele around, trying to avoid ur attacks as well as beeing able to kill you in a jiffy, as well as shockwave is rendered almost useless due to the new mechanics with fhr.

In pvp a bear need to unshape-tele-shape-shockwave-attack-unshape-catch up-tele-shape-shockwave-attack again etc to win duels. He May have a ranged attack in the form of fissure or volcano with to ticle most enemies with a 10 x fire facet switch.

However fireclaw has the 2 most useless syntenergies for pvp now (firestorm and moulten boulder, so we have to basicly ditch the ranged spells since we cannot say no to the adds in werebear and maul now.

If you try to charge up maul enemies will kill you prior to reaching charge up nr 4 or 5 due to they get out of range and start to reagress. Once you unshape to tele all maul charges will be lost. So first charging up maul, to then switch to fireclaw will never work in pvp…
So fireclaw is now useless in pvp, cause no1 want to use a slow 17k fire dmg attack with maby 5-7k physical on top. Its then better to attack with maul for stun, higher damage and attack breakpoint build up.

Which means we need to at least start with the fastest wepon we can.

Ofc there are 2 routes, 2 handed gt with +4 range adder and 1 handed swing pb with +1 range adder. Range adder is super important for melee in pvp.

We will have a look upon the 2 hander setup.
Giant tresher. (10fpa attack = 72 ias needed with prior to maul charge up).
There is a possibility to find a eth fool’s or eth cruel self repair with inzane ed, 2 soc and 40 base ias who can be soceted up to 70ias and 530% ed for cruel, or 80ias+450% ed ed shaeled. However most likely none better than eth botd ba will ever spawn or be available, after 20 years of d2lod i have never seen one.

So we assume we use a eth botd gt. Lets assume perfect 415% ed as well.

We need fcr for this to work.

  • Magefist/trang ouls
  • 2 druid/20fcr/adds/2sox helm with ber+shael or ber or Lo or 15/40 or 15/15 or cham or smt.
  • arach / dungo
  • hl
  • 10fcr/100+ar/str/dex/mana/10@ ring
  • raven or wisp or dwarf
  • gores
  • highlord
  • enigma
    (68fcr/48fcr) - used 99 before.
    As you can see already we lack heavy resists, so we need all resists charms.
    (Anya(30), torch and annie(40), 10 x scs(50), 10fcr ring(10) = 130… Se we need to sacrifice 3 skillers for 175@ with help ofc scs. Ofc we can get lucky and spawn up to 20@ in helm, but Ideally it would need 30frw,visio prior to that… .

Torch
Annie
Cube ‘enchant stick and mara+2 x bk/soj for bo’
5 x shape skillers life
18 x life/5@ sca

77x1,5*5,15 = 594 average wep damage.
Cba the calc now. But i guess we start around 7-8k average damage and ends at 16k average dmg with maul.

If we used the 15ias in helm we reach 9fpa attack at strike 3, enemies usually get away at like 2-3 hits. Without the ias jool in helm we hit 9 fpa. After the 5th hit.
So as you see its technically still a 10 fpa build. So very low… It also sacrified 1 fcr break. People wont stand there letting you hit them 10-15 times.

In gm melee duels which like 10-15 people May play it sure can be decent, but will most likely loose massivly vs werewolf, amazon, and zeal :stuck_out_tongue:

Now lets have a look what this defense helps in pvp:
Amazon:
Guardian arrow = Ignore defense
Fury = Ignore defense
Lightning bolt = Ignore defense and block
Multi = possible 24-28k ar
Strafe = possible 24-28k ar

Smite: Ignore defense and block.
Hammer: Ignore all but summon zoo, kills in 3-4 hits.
Foh: ur tiny res and the op speed of this skills means ur dead befor attack animation can play.

Necromancer:
Defense dont help vs any of his skills except you meet a daggermancer who wildely decided to pvp, then he lr you and cast 1 psn nova and your dead.

Werewolf:
I assume theese guys will run around 26-28k ar and be attacking at 3,5 frames vs urs 10.

Sorc:
Unless its an chanter sorc you defense dont help here. And catching here with ur 48 or 68fcr May be problematic to say the least.

Assassin:
Mindblast + traps, and inzane kick ar of like 22-30k if fool’s claw. His wirl attacks at 2 fpa with around 18-20k+ ar on fools claw and 10-15k on chaos.
(so yes helps unless its a Trapsin)

Barbarian:
Had gotten ar buff, you gained defense buff… Ye u will get a little less few hits, but he has 2fpa attack… 4 if shield.

I’ll assume that all your calculations are correct.

Fundamentally, PTR, as of now, is only focused on class skill balancing for PvM. Hopefully the dev team focuses on the lobby, THEN turn their attention on PvP (only a very small fraction of the playerbase actually PvPs).

I think the whole design of PvP should be evaluated as a whole and balanced separately from PvM - not sure if this is ever going to be addressed, however.

Well the thing is that pvm trade is highly in need of pvp.

Who else wanna trade godly rares and craft?
Example helm:
Guilaume
Jalals
Arreat
Shako
You have now covered pvm needs and theese helmets work better than any rare for pvm. What we gonna do with the crazy rares? Sell them to akara? No they are traded with pvp’ers.
Who else is min maxing their char, need spesific stats(even though now without str bug function and such there is some less of that) - pvp’ers.

There are lot of items rendered nearly useless for pvm, but highly needed for pvp.

The thing is that the trading is in harmony between pvm and pvp.

Also, its to early to count pvp numbers for d2r, people May use the starting faze to build up gear. Then graduatly move into pvp.
And numbers cant be counted for d2lod as there is a billion bots pvm’ing etc. Im sure there is quite a lot on d2r as well. So theese numbers cannot be logged.
I believe there is more pvp’er than people exspect.

It can never ever compete against higher ATK Speed - its just how d2 melee works. Fireclaw is basicly dead or meme build at best - completely relied on that 4-5fpa weapons.
Uninterruped is a joke compared to how much often DS and CB would trigger with high ATKS.

More life, seriously? Faster killspeed is the better protection - what is dead wont damage you.

Activision is so stubborn and desperately want to make the change happen they initially wanted to get that tooltip right for whatever reason, what BS.

Only way i see this work is if WB gets 1,5% CB/LVL.
Defense isnt a good stat, you need to stack insane amounts of def that it really has an impact. If you want that people pick bear over wolf for tank capabilitys it needs to be elemental/damage absorb instead of defense to make an impact.

I agree with that. Defense means nothing.

1 Like

I agree, increase DR%/MDR% per level of werebear would do much better than just defense itself.

If assassin can get fade, no reason a bear druid can’t.

I don’t disagree, as long as its not as high as fade or as quick. Considering druids can get much more HP overall.

For me the problem is that they nerf the bear, it was already weak, now its super weak for pvp, and also a weaker for pvm.

The new fhr function pretty much make shockwave crap.
It also weakens maul.
Then you Burn his attack speed and class is made useless for pvp, weak for pvm.

Life/defense can never make up for loss of dmg.
There is a complete difference with a skill like holy shield. The holy shield symbiose with the 45@ base in shields as well as the combination of max block and defense and the fcr breakpoints and ias breakpoints easy to reach even on 50% dr builds and really insane melee and magic skills, with epic mobility as well as ways to desync and break stun. Skill ias via fana, frw via charge and vigor, inzane damages, stun, and an attack its really hard to avoid(foh) also with a 1 point wonder forcing enemies to stack both lr and dr…

Werebear go down to 8 or 16 % dr just to reach the bad 99fcr break… And he need to shape shift twice… So we are actually looking at reell 30-40 frame hunting speed, and then slowly move his paw towards a enemy with a attackspeed that closes upon impale frames…

You can say the same for assas clawblock, fade, easy breakpoints, stun and easy to hybrid… Its night and day… Werebear is simple weak now…