So further question about physical sunder (and sunders in general). Is it more desirable to have the highest % you can find for physical? Reason being is I found several of them and people seem to want the lowest % possible for other sunders. My physical one (which I havent sold) is 16%. Im a long time player of the original D2 (played almost 15 years as mostly summon necro main and wind druid/Ww Barb alts) - return to the game after purchasing D2R 2 weeks ago on sale.
You always want to try and have the lowest % you can find. That % is how much your own resistance is penalized, not the enemyâs. The immune enemyâs resistance is always set to 95% no matter the % value on the charm. That % only applies to you.
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He is actually correct that FS is overall better option (that being said I am not a fan of any sunder on Fishy) particularly in CS, as in your example where PS have no value whatsoever, I think you misunderstood the idea behind it.
You still only use amp, What FS does, is adding bit of fire damage from CE to the monsters who normally would only get physical part of damage.
I am not actually sure if conviction from merc works with sunder (can someone please confirm)
Reason why FS is overall better is because there is more FI than PI monsters.
Conviction works at 1/5th efficiency to sundered targets.
To make use of sunders safety, you need end game charm resistance inventory.
Amp damage is good because it has 100% efficiency on sundered targets.
it has, the problem is that it depends on how many, if any, PIs are going to spawn in CS
so, according to the math presented, using a FSunder wont increase your overall dmg in CS but using a PhySunder will increase your overall kill spd against any PI that may spawn
i think the math for that was covered in my example
the problem is that sundered FI will still be sitting at 61% fire res(convic+LR)
in my example, against venom lords in CS
you have to chose between doing 69,5% of your fire dmg or +100% of your physical dmg to them
my point was that on overall, its better to not even use any sunder than use the fire one, and the only sunder that will give you any advantage eventually is the PhySunder
I know that - what I dont know is, if Conviction comes from merc does it count Sunder?
So does it starts from 95% res, or from non sundered res.
No it wasnât. To cover it you would need FS + Conviction + Amp, not FS + Conviction + LR.
It also doesnt matter how many PI will spawn in CS, because there it can only be uniques, which you just Amp + telestomp with your army after clearing trash.
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it counts.
20 characters
youre completely right
sry about that
here it is
Fsunder+convic+amp
- venom lords will sit at 83% fire res and phys res will be at -50% making you deal 83,5% ([50-83%]+[50+50%]) of your CE dmg
- oblivion knights will be sitting at -15% fire res and -67% phys res making you deal 141% ([50+15%]+[50+67%]) of your CE dmg
- finger mages will be sitting at -85% fire res and -50% phys res making you deal 167.5% ([50+85]+[50+50%]) of your CE dmg
(83,5%+141%+167.5%)/3 = +30% overall CE dmg
conclusion:
for CS, the setup FS+convic+amp gonna give us the best overall CE dmg against trash mobs
edit: venom lord phy res was wrong, updated the math with the correct value
but this doesnt change the fact that FS+convic+amp is superior in chaos against trash mobs
yeah, thats right
but then your amp is gonna work only at 1/5
anyway, that wasnt even my point originally
PhySunder is for areas with natural PIs bc it makes our amp work at 100%, helping with the first corpse
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Thank you
x chars required
Phys and magic Sunders are rarely useful, but I donât see how this results in a 9 out of 10 ^^
All lighting builds use lighting sunder. All fire builds use fire sunder.
Cold sunder is fine to apply frost on all frost builds.
Poison sunder is maybe not as good as the others but still valid.
so i had to redo all math bc i forgot to aply convic -res against non immunes to fire without any Scharm
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No charm+amp+convic,
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venom lords will remain immune to fire but their phys res will be at -50% making you deal 75% (0+[50+50%]) of your CE dmg
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oblivion knights will be sitting at -25% fire res and -67% phys res making you deal 146% ([50+25%]+[50+67%]) of your CE dmg
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finger mages will be sitting at -85% fire res and -50% phys res making you deal 167.5% (50+[50+50%]) of your CE dmg
(75%+146%+167.5%)/3 = +29,5% overall CE dmg
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FSunder+amp+convic
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venom lords will sit at 83% fire res and phys res will be at -50% making you deal 83,5% ([50-83%]+[50+50%]) of your CE dmg
-
oblivion knights will be sitting at -15% fire res and -67% phys res making you deal 141% ([50+25%]+[50+67%]) of your CE dmg
-
finger mages will be sitting at -85% fire res and -50% phys res making you deal 167.5% ([50+85]+[50+50%]) of your CE dmg
(83.5%+146%+167.5%)/3 = +32% overall CE dmg
thats it, using a FSunder in CS will give you +2,5% overall CE dmg with the penalty of having to compensate the -70% fire res
so the player should ask himself, if its worth
in my opinion its better to dedicate those smc to MF instead of fire res
Again physical sunder is VERY strong as long as you have a source of Amp or Decrep (which you should.) Physical sunder against immunes increases your damage against them by over 5x, and removes a bunch of immunities you otherwise couldnât break. If you are running a physical build, have amp/decrep proc, are farming an area with physical immunes, or somewhere like Trav that fairly regularly has one physical immune target, youâd be a bit silly not to run it.
The magic sunder is basically useless though.
Play Nova/ES and you wonât need any resitances besides poison. You only need 105 fcr, so basically Trang/mages 20, arach 20, Viper 30, Spirit 35 and you are already done with budget gear and can use crescent moon as weapon for -lr until you have griffons, infinity and a 2/10 or 3/10 amulet. If you donât have sojs, you could use 2 fcr + mana rings + frosties to have more mana for ES. Nova sorc is really made more Sunder charms unlike a lightning Vita sorc that has to replace the resistance for just a âlittleâ damage gain.
@Topic
Sunder charms buff any elemental build. Phys builds barely profit from them and magic damage builds got the short end. I donât like the sunder charms and never will like them, because they are a lazy implementation to fix problems with unbreakable immunities, but Blizzard, just like the OP, have no clue about the game.
Phys Sunders are RARELY useful (not âž never ^^)
the two most common phys builds donât really need them
Smiter never encounters phys immune in UT ^^
Wirwind Barb can put 1 point in Amok ^^
Yes, if you go to the more exotic builds like bow Amazons or throw barb they may play a huge part, but there arenât many of those builds playing.
Still the main complaint I had was that OP think sunders are useless in 9 out of 10 use cases and this is definitely not true ^^
So you say a build that utilizes no synergies with sunders only gets little benefit out of it?
Never would have thought that ^^
now recalculate with a flickering flame and Phoenix shield and the impact is more than 10 times bigger ^^
Obviously Necromancers with already multiple damages types and easy accessibility to buff CE phys compound does not really need a Fire sunder, but this is as useful as arguing against poison sunders since sorcs donât benefit from them ^^
Physical sunders not being good because âpeople donât play physical buildsâ isnât much of an argument for them not being good on physical builds though. They are good for wind druids/zealots/bowazons/shifters with a merc rocking reapers toll or lawbringer. They are good for throw barbs. They are also good for several more niche builds.
Itâs not the items fault that everyone runs Mosiac and Nova sorc. Itâs good where itâs good. As any item thatâs useful is. The argument that âfire sunder is bad because my sorc is lightningâ doesnât really work either you know. Sure lightning builds are for the most part top of the food chain, but itâs not like many other builds canât be effective/fun. Hell you can make a Fire Druid that clears every area (including TZ CS on P8) quickly.
OP is arguing that sunders are bad for everyone but sorc, and thatâs just laughably wrong. Try building a good fire druid with and without sunder and youâll VERY quickly see the difference.
Think mine currently rocks Hoto/Phoenix/Nigma/Facetted Ravenlore/Maraâs/2x BK/Aldurâs boots/Arachnids/Magefists/Sunder/Gheedâs/Torch/Anni/Skillers with an eth mancather Infinity on merc. Still need a solid 2/20/20 neck on him though.
There is a hell of a difference between having to kill fire immunes with purely physical, and not being able to kill physical/fire immunes, and dealing 2/3 of your fire damage to immunes.
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and lose the 125fcr?
you also have to remember that 2/3 of CS mobs will be sitting at negative -fire% bc of infinity, making the investiment in futher -fire% being noticeable only against venom lords
and you would lose a total of 4-5 pts to all skills, making your minions hit a lot less and do a lot less dmg, increasing the time to get the first corpse
so to summarize,
you are proposing to lose a fcr bp and to weaken your minions in order to kill venom lords faster
the arguing was that using a FSunder in combination with amp+convic was better than not using it, this with little to no change in gear and skill setup
Maybe you missed this part âŚ
To resummarize:
Obviously, Necromancers ⌠not really need a Fire sunder.
But if you actually want to min max â
Not sure who would even consider a Necromancer with less than 125% FCR and this has nothing to do with the fire sunder synergies.
Not sure, in which world, 5 skill points on skeletons would have noticeable impact on your clear speed, especially if you play Infinity ^^ (perfect hitting 12 skeletons on level 30 do 2.8k dps;13 skeletons on level 35 do 4.4k dps ;15 on level 40 do 6.8k all cases irrelevant compared to a mercenary which is also much more likely to actually attack, hit and finish one target)
CS has one guarantied and on average 2.4 fire immune elite packs. What does it help that other monsters die in 2 cast if you need to do 6 casts for the immunes anyway ?!
Never said you need a fire sunder. I only said your calculated benefit of 2.5% is only because your build sucks to utilize a fire sunder.
an optimized SUMON necro for CS would use a fire sunder and a Phoenix shield!
the flickering flame makes only sense if you have enough mf from other sources, otherwise a Shako is worth the louse in clear speed.
see the problem is werewolf does not have a reliable way to proc either of those
the only viable option to do that would be via merc or via offhand
merc AI is too stupid to attack the correct targets and i cant make him change target until his target is dead, meaning i need to stop what im doing and kill his target, and im also wolf and cant teleport to make him retarget.
reapers toll is ok as an offhand, and lacerator would work as an offhand⌠and sure that works but is that the extra inventory space? i cant have both treachery and lacerator in cube
and having the +5 skill on summons prebuff is nice, especially after i lose the +2 from jalals when i equip metamorphosis.
wolf druid just has no reasonable way to apply the curses
Excuse me lol. I did and i know others who did too. I played fire sorc for MF runs alot. No infinity.