Sunder Charms seems pointless

General Discussion
1

i just recently starting picking up Sunder charms and it got me excited. i don’t often pickup Unique Charms.

but i don’t get it, i think its overrated but that may just coming from a newbie.

It brakes enemy Immunity but only down to 95%. they are still so hard to be affected by the element that you have broken them from that they might as well be Immune again.

now i know the solution was to increase your Bonus damage to that Element, but now you have to focus on restoring your own resistance which was greatly affected by sunder. Double Problem to solve. the bonus Damage you make might as well be used against other element monsters who are not immune.

i think to sacrifice a 3 slot on your inventory where you could put 1 more grand charm for resistance etc, just so you could basically remove the “immune” word from the monster is not worth the hassle of solving two more problems, your resistance to that element and your bonus damage to that element. you might as well move pass that monster.

is it just because im a newbie ? am i ever going to reach further than 200% resistance ? my whole inventory is FULL of charms for resistance only i couldn’t even pick up items normally without having to drag them to my cube.

BTW

  • im playing on Single player Offline
  • im on Hell Difficulty
  • My ARMORS are Shako, Enigma, Magefist ,some boots with Magic Find
  • using Cast rate rings for now and Tal rasha amulet.
  • My weapons are Oculus and Spirit Shield swap with Call to Arms
  • My inventory is full of resistance just to reach 180-190 resistance to all.
  • im a full on NOVA/METEOR sorceress and im trying to NOVA the hell out of mobs only to find my damage to them is like 2-3% each NOVA while the rest of the mobs gets one swipe with my NOVA. turns out these mobs were IMMUNE but broken to 95%. it would be counter productive if i face them while they truly hurt me still.

if my sunder charm is Lightning and it takes away 85% of my lightning resistance then Hell takes away 100% then im down to 0%, my inventory is full. i cannot imagine where to get more resistance to restore the 85% then on top of that i also need to consider slots for increasing my Lightning Damage to TRULLY break those Lightning Resist.

thanks guys

2

as soon as your merc has infinity you will see the use of the sundered charms.

1 Like
3

You’re right, the sunder charms are dumb. You need powerful endgame gear before they’re useful.

1 Like
4

Thanks man ill review Inifinity again … my merc is currently using insight maybe its time to go back to pots.

So the Merc reduces their resistance even more, is that for all enemies in the screen or just the one hes hitting with melee ?

what is the best base for it if i wanted to self wield it and maybe later let the merc use it ?

also should i self wield it ?

5

You will need equipment to lower the sundered’ lighning resistence. This is a list:
https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php/Enemy_Lightning_Resistance
Note: They only work for the character wearing the items. So if your merc wears a Griffon’s Eye, the monster’s LR will not be lowered for you, only for your merc.

Besides that, there is the conviction aura and since you’re a sorc the only source for that is aforementioned Infinity RW which could be used by either you or your merc (nova sorcs like to self-use Infinity for both conviction and the -ELR).
ANd lastly, there the curse Lower Resist. Since you’re not a necro, two realistic options: Get a LR wand or equip your act 5 merc with Plague RW(s).

Note that for sundered enemies LR and Conv only work at 20%.

The ones which are affected by the conviction aura. Affected targets get that same green swirl below their feet as the one using it.

normal weapon with low (dex) requirements. You won’t be using Spirit shield, so your strength will be lower than a “standard” sorc. People like scythes for the look, I like tridents.

Ethereal mancatcher. Highest base speed.

There is no best base if you want to both use it yourself and your merc. In that case I’d probably go with a Brandistock if you can reach the 50 dex without spending a single skill point in it (assuming you have an anni and a torch that will work). The merc won’t be doing much damage with it but that’s not his job anyway - he’s there for the aura.

As a nova sorc: yes. You will benefit from the -ELR on it and using nova will ensure that your enemies are affected by conv.

1 Like
6

Thanks ! very detailed ! answered all my questions

so i need Lightning Sunder Charm, Merc Infinity or Self Weild Inifity.

im still leaning towards making my Merc use infinity because im so weak, i am not sure if i can part ways with the resistance and cast speed that i get from both my weapon and shield. i will experiment a bit.

thank you

7

Sunders work really well when you have items that minus enemy resist, infinity is great sure but hardly required, there’s other things like Facets and skills and other runewords/items to minus enemy res too

1 Like
8

Infinity is absolutely required to make sunders work for anything other than lit builds, presuming you have a griffons. Even then, your build is better with infinity. For all other elements, you limited by the amount of facets you could possibly use, which for most is 3-4. The 17% reduction you get for bringing infinity is massive.

Sunders don’t work well because D2 never had the pierce itemization to make them work well. If sunders were meant to solve that issue, then they failed. They would reasonably need to reduce enemy resistance to 50, or they would need to allow for effects like convic and LR to work at full capacity. Yeah, this would break lit because for whatever reason, the only element with real item support beyond infinity is lit.

The minds behind D2R don’t understand D2, and things like sunder charms and mosaic prove that.

1 Like
9

The Sunder Charms make the game more playable again. But it has its weaknesses.

One thing I generally dislike in an item collecting game is the fact that you fill up your inventory with charms instead of having an extra fixed charm area.

Now you leave a few spaces open just to be able to pick up some items. That’s fun…

2 Likes
10

Sometimes I just :man_facepalming:

11

You just what? You don’t understand being wrong and having someone disagree with you? Infinity is absolutely required to make sunders matter for any non lit build. Try reading the post you respond to, you’ll learn something about D2.

13

If infinity is mandatory maybe they should give us one for free.

I played the game for about 6 years and never seen a jah or ber rune. The droprates for online singleplayer are unacceptable.

The only way to aquire these back in the day was trading because dupes were plenty.
The overabundance made the game fun. What you play now is not the experience that made people play the game forever. The dupes made the game bearable.

1 Like
14

Again, I can’t express this enough…:man_facepalming:

Maybe you should take your own advice and be the one to understand being wrong (as you are). Though of course given what I know from out interactions I won’t hold my breath

Infinity is in no way absolutely required to make sunders matter…both by definition, and in practice

I agree, try reading the post you reply to, it may help you to catch up with my 24 continuous unbroken years of D2 knowledge and experience and learn something

15

ikr ? i have not played online yet but will come to that soon.

but watching Video of Sweet Phil my heart broke when he said he got his only Zod rune in his entire life and he seems to be playing Diablo for decades.

i haven’t got the time for that, waiting for years to complete my set.

1 Like
16

Yes, it is. Have fun playing any cold or fire build without it. Have fun playing any lit build without either griffons or infinity. The only build in the game that gets a pass is cold sorc, and give cold mastery a read to understand why. You have no clue what you’re talking about and nobody should take your advice or perspective into consideration.

3 Likes
17

Before you dislike Sunder Charms, you must understand that all but four -Enemy Resistance sources in the game only work when the Monster’s Resistance is below 100(aka not Immune). This applies to Cold Mastery, Rainbow Facet Jewels and any piece of equipment with -Enemy Resistance Modifier(ex: Crescent Moon runeword).

Prior to Sunder Charms, one had to break Fire/Cold/Lightning Immunity by means of Conviction or Lower Resist. The most efficient and arguably expensive means is Infinity or level 12 Conviction. When used in tandem with a Lower Resist wand from vendors, one could deal reasonable damage for enemies whose immunity could be broken. For Poison, all you had was Lower Resist curse so anything above 115 Resistance was unbreakable due to Lower Resist only going as high as -70(and that required Lower Resist to be in the 50’s!!… scaling on that skill needs a rework). Yet a meager level 1 LR wand would give you -31% so anything that was 100 or 105 could be broken(albeit you’d deal 1% damage…). Yet just breaking it is all that mattered IF you had -Enemy Resistance gear.

Once an immunity is broken, all those sources of -Enemy Resistance work at 100%. That meant if you could break Cold Immunity as a Blizzard Sorceress, your Cold Mastery would set them to -100 and it’d shatter in a hail of Ice. Yet you’ll come to find as you explore Monster Resistance in the Bestiary on Arreat Summit that Cold Resistance is typically 120, if not 130+. That meant that a Sorceress playing with a Paladin sporting level 25 Conviction couldn’t break the Immunity. Even with Lower Resist from a Necromancer, it couldn’t be broken and if they were Cold Enchanted… you can forget about it.

So, in Blizzard’s infinite wisdom, rather than reform the Monster Resistance list and balance spell damage/synergies to compensate, they opted to roll out the lazy but predictable Sunder Charm as a band-aid solution to the Hell Resistance issue that plagues players who foolishly go with a single element build.

What Sunder Charms do is that instead of NEEDING the likes of Infinity(which is expensive and hard to acquire on your own), it takes a Monster’s Resistance(w/e it happens to be, even Frozenstein’s 285 Cold Resistance) and sets it to 95 for that respective Element. Meaning a Monster who would otherwise be unbreakable can now be harmed by that Element and for a brief time, Cold Mastery would then kick-in and promptly set all Monster Resistance to -100.

They then nerfed Cold Mastery to behave like Conviction and Lower Resist when breaking an Immunity(20% effectiveness) but only against Sundered Enemies. So, when calculating what a Monster Resistance would be with a Sunder Charm, you set it to 95(Sundered) and then subtract all -Enemy Resistance sources(Cold Mastery(at 20%), Rainbow Facet Jewels, -Enemy Resistance attribute from say Crescent Moon, Griffons, Infinity, etc.). Conviction granted from Infinity adds another -17%(up to -30% from a level 25 Conviction emitted from a Paladin). Lower Resist Curse from a Necromancer adds up to -12%, maybe 13%.

So, for example, take a Trang-Oul Necromancer with Poison Sunder charm and a Death Web wand. His wand is perfect with four 5/5 Poison Facets in Wand, Helm, Armor and Off-Hand respectively. His Lower Resist Curse is level 15(for a nice -60 Resistance). Poison Sunder sets the Poison Immune enemy to 95 Resistance. Death Web(50) + Trang-Oul(25) and four 5/5 Facets(20) add up to -95 Enemy Poison Resistance. That means without Lower Resist Curse, the Sundered enemy has Zero Resistance. Then when afflicted with Lower Resist, they take 12% amplified Poison Damage.

Against everything else, that same Poison build above would take their non-immune Resistance and drop it by -155 when under the effects of Lower Resist. Therefore if the enemy has 55 Poison Resistance or less, they’ll take +100% or x2 Poison Damage. Against foes who would otherwise be unbreakable, I think having -70 Resistance penalty is a small price to pay don’t you think?

Also you can place Sunder Charms in your stash. You won’t benefit from them but you also won’t suffer the Resistance penalty until you manage to farm up something to bolster your Resistance and to scrape together some -Resistance gear to take advantage of it. Seeing as you’re a Sorceress, once you find a -70 Cold Sunder Charm, re-spec into a Blizzard Sorceress and pump what you can into Cold Mastery. At level 37, Cold Sundered Enemies will have 55 Resistance, which is manageable as I see it. Against everything else, your Cold Spells will obliterate them. Her Fire and arguably Lightning tree though is much stronger but requires specialized equipment to take advantage of it. Fire variant utilizes Flickering Flame that grants Resist Fire Aura that can offset the Fire Resistance penalty of the Sunder charm while also granting -10 to -15 Enemy Fire Resistance.

3 Likes
18

Amazing ! it seems… im going back to using Sunder charm after all. its easier for me since im in Offline single player mode

1 Like
19

When come to drops, it’s RNG and since your played offline, you can increase player count and increase the chances of getting the runes and items U want.

20

Dude, this is so wrong I can’t even begin to explain. OP, please do not take this as an absolute, I will list examples at the end of my post.

OP, first of all, let me iron this out up front. You are on single player, and playing offline, I am assuming you are not using a hero editor? If not, you are going to have a rough time getting an infinity or griffons, and infinity is NOT required whatsoever at all. Also just to note, I prefer always playing legit, so I mostly play solo online, but test on single player sometimes, or go on single player for hardcore, because I can’t deal with disconnects. Infinity is ridiculously expensive if you don’t already have a bank.

The biggest damage boost you can receive, and it is also the cheapest option you can go for, is if you have an “Um” rune, make the runeword “Crescent Moon” in a 3 socket sword, or whatever base you like the most. This weapon will double your damage gain compared to what infinity would give you. The -35% enemy lightning resist is 100% effective and will make you all of the sudden able to slap those lightning sundered monsters. In comparison, Infinity will reduce sundered monsters resists by only 17%, and that is only IF the aura is actually affecting the enemy.

Now to tackle the crazy wild claim that “Infinity is absolutely required to make sunders matter for any non lit build” is crazy. How is Infinity going to help you with poison, physical, magic? You have to remember that -85% enemy resist from infinity is being absolutely nerfed hard on sundered enemies to only work at 1/5 effectiveness, bringing it only to 17% reduction in enemy lightning resist. As stated, crescent moon is far superior, and you can still use insight or whatever else on our Merc. Additionally, you can acquire a Griffon’s more likely than Ber, Ber, Mal, Ist. Either way though, Infinity and Griffon are both pretty deep chase items. I’d focus on that Crescent Moon > Griffon > Infinity if you feel you still need it at that point.

To be honest, my Nova sorc does not use Infinity and she is a complete monster. I like to use a partial Tal Rasha combination, and sometimes use crescent moon and griffons, or tal wand instead of crescent moon. Under both scenarios, I’ve never need infinity whatsoever, and everything dies extremely efficiently.

Truth be told, sunders actually put a heavier preference of acquiring gear with -% enemy resists since those stats work at 100% compared to lower resist/infinity/cold mastery, and pushed Infinity almost towards the last on the list for any elemental build.

Fire builds: You have Phoenix with a massive -res (shield and weapon), Flickering Flame, Tal wand option with other set bonuses (if Sorc), Hand of Justice, etc. These are just to name a few and not to mention facets you can add in… Druid’s also have Ravenlore

Cold builds: Pretty impossible to beat Doom if you are specifically looking to achieve some -% enemy cold res, Ice bow, facets, etc.

Lightning builds: Crescent moon is GG if your build allows, Griffons, faceted armor/shields, tal wand with set bonus (if sorc), etc.

Infinity has no effect on:
Poison builds: Infinity doesn’t work… You have death web, 3pc trang with shield (if necro), Grief, facets, etc.

Magic damage builds: This one really is a bummer… we don’t have anything known to reduce enemy magic resist. :frowning:

Physical damage builds: Infinity would only reduce defense if you are using attack rating to hit, you have amp damage/decrep from different sources

Specifically with the introduction of sunder charms and the subsequent nerfs to conviction, lower resist, and cold master against sunder enemies, Infintiy is actually a sub-par option when compared to the rest of the gear options and should be considered the “icing” on the cake if you want to continue to add damage. However, I keep finding the benefit of having Insight on my mercenary a huge QOL I just don’t want to get rid of to add more damage I can’t even notice anyways.

I hope this helps clear things up! IF this was pre-sunder, Infinity is required for sure. It’s just not 1.14 anymore.

3 Likes
21

Sunders only good for enabling Fire builds in Hell, otherwise poorly developed solution for immunities. People said Hammerdin too op for TZ, not everyone else too weak. Like with Enigma instead of nerfing they decided to make everyone broken and as usual Cold Sorc got the most benefit from it because it’s crazy combo with Cold Mastery while others need rare endgame gear.

They should remove Sunders and Mosaic when season ended and work on better ways for these cases.