Season 4 - Time For Melee To Shine

General Discussion
27

a good WW patch would be nice. i miss spinning my life away on a 2handed barb

spinning along river of flame on my lance/iceblink barb is one of my best classic d2 souvenirs heh. (lances came in late they were the first exceptional item to enter the game)

2 Likes
28

Ww hitting 5 aditional targets would make it the absolute Omega end skill for all barbs.

Ww is currently superior to frenzy and zerk by a reasonable margin … actual aOE ww would put too much space between em …

Just straight up delet stun and add 2h cleave :rofl:.

1 Like
29

Agreed, got carried away. Updated above post for LA synergy adding +1 target every 10 levels (max. 2 additional targets) for WW. I also think it would be nice if WW synergy increased the radius of LA.

I really like the idea of a dedicated skill for 2H-weapons like Cleave and replacing the useless Stun skill is the best candidate for deletion.

This really is an elegant solution that solves three glaring problems:

  • Replaces useless Stun
  • Gives Barb access to an AoE-skill
  • Gives Barb a skill dedicated to 2H-weapons
3 Likes
30

Look, I don’t disagree with deep diving the entire deal and coming upo with these detailed lists…
but…
Lets start with something so simple, the Dev’s have already implemented it and pushed it into game mode already.
Give melee/physical damage boost we had over the holidays… 50% increase… it made no difference/threat to the meta.
We need to start small and simple if we are to ever get anywhere.

1 Like
31

I think the game would be healthier by increasing base damage of weapons and balance from there. Melee will also always be relatively weak without some addition of splash/aoe damage.

2 Likes
32

Since the devs nerfed the Shockwave Druid into oblivion, I think they could atleast do the following in Patch 2.7:

  • Shockwave - increase Maul synergy from +10% to +15% per level and physical damage now benefits from Might, Fanaticism, etc.

Agreed. I have another thread dedicated to improving itemization, including buffing base weapon damage. But, I would still like to see underperforming melee skills get some improvement as well.

33

for barb no
the increased stamina skill needs a + % to cb ds ow or cs thats it end of story pick one idc

34

Mostly I am ok with suggestions.

I like all your druid suggestions like Hunger always hit, Shockwave influenced by auras or Spirit of barbs -% phys res is nice.

For barbarian:

  • Increased speed could really give +% attack speed bonus. I would probably let it be 3% lvl 1, 2% lvl 2, 2% lvl 3, … , 1% lvl 5 and so on. Outside WW build no other build has spare points to invest many, so first few points should be significant. Also a change to run/walk speed per point could be at minimum +2% not 1% per point later.
  • Increased Stamina - i think Stamina name can stay and let them add flat +10-15 attack rating bonus per level. As goes by logic: you got less stamina you are less focused and less likely to hit targets. FHR is useless to get on skill, gear gets you 20+FHR from early to endgame items as well.
  • Taunt in area is interesting idea, far more useful than single target, cos all enemies try to kill you anyway. This way it could be a beneficial synergy to Frenzy if it stayed. At least for not-endgame Frenzy barb that want Decrep procs instead Taunt effect.
  • Bash - this skill is outdated simply, has no real use. No melee barb needs to knockback a monster. This skill should be changed completely and replaced. Or give it a gimmick Always hit mechanic like Smite for bosses. But thats not that good solution.
  • Concentrate sounds good
  • Frenzy sounds good altho it needs more and more damage. Or att speed. If it could break attack speed limits to 5,5 6 6,5 7 attacks/second it would be more fun and interesting than simply giving more damage.

Berserk % magic dmg synergies work like Convert physical to magic damage. At first I tought 90% magic and 10% physical dmg ratio on Frenzy seems stupid, but on the other hand why not 3% per level and can leave you with option to make your own ratio of magic:physical dmg on Frenzy. 25/75% 50/50% 75/25%. Which would not be possible with 1% convert per level.

1 Like
35

Barb is jam packed with useless or copycat skills, and Increased Stamina has to be the worst “useless” skill in the tree. Requiring it for any sort of damage synergy is going to feel bad. In general, skills should be reduced to 2 synergy bonuses, or a 60 hard point investment at max.

36

How about adding this additional synergy…

  • Increased Stamina - rename to “Increased Resilience,” and now adds +1% FHR per level and add new Iron Skin synergy of +1% physical damage reduction per level

I still think increased stamina offering +FHR fits the fantasy better and now with new synergy with iron skin could really benefit defensive-oriented characters. Adding +raw attack rating should be left to weapon masteries. See below for adding CB to Bash.

We could simply throw in CB per level, in addition to flat damage and AR increase. In terms of melee skills, Bash is the worst in the game. If we were going to add CB to any skill, it’s most fitting and thematic for Bash as the brute strength of the Barbarian is unrivaled…

  • Bash - now grants 1% crushing blow per level, increase flat damage to +3 (up from +1) and increase +3 per level (up from +1). In addition, attack rating starts at 50% (up from 20%) and increase at 10% per level (up from 5%)

I’m already proposing to remove Taunt synergy and freeing up 20 points for Frenzy. This is the same treatment for Vengeance, remove Salvation synergy to free up 20 points. I understand where you are coming from, but requesting more may be too much.

37

On the other side - me still thinking Increased stamina with flat attack rating fits better. I imagine 2 MMA fighters fighting for too long in the ring. They have lower focus and miss more than hit. There my flat attack rating goes. And its more practical effect - since Barb has lot of % AR, but lacks good AR source. It will pair up nice with % AR bonus on masteries+skill barb has.

This can be at least “SOME” help for the skill that dev could implement, but its too miniscule to have any impact I think. I would rather pick it up if it Always hit but had no CB or low dmg, than have low CB but cant hit always.

1 Like
38

Always hit doesn’t fit the fantasy of Bash, but adding CB does with Barb’s brute strength. If anything, Concentrate would be the skill for always hit mechanic and fits the theme nicely. Would you support adding the always hit mechanic to Concentrate?

Reading the lore of Concentrate -
“Sometimes a series of blows is not nearly as effective as a single, concentrated strike. A Barbarian trained in this skill learns how to focus his strength into a single blow that cuts through the guard of an enemy and slices through their armor. This technique also puts the warrior in a superior defensive position.”

39

Yes I read that lore few days ago and I immidiately tought of Always hit. It would make for a great skill afterwards I think and fits the lore perfectly. Adding it to Concentrate will “fix” Concentrate for good for eternity i think. But that seems way too good afterwards.

The line “cuts through the guard of an enemy and slices through their armor” means rather Ignore block chance and/or defense rating of enemy and still apply attack rating mechanics. That would make it interesting mechanic, since monsters and bosses usually have 15-50% block chance on Hell.

Bash I would maybe play it if it starts at 5% CB as 1-point wonder against bosses on playthrough. Then at least 2% CB/lvl increase. 1% CB/lvl seems too small amount to even use it on bosses instead your main attack skill like Frenzy WW Berserk Concentrate Leap attack Doublethrow Doubleswing.
You can craft Strength rw for cheap for 25% CB and use rather your main attack than Bash.

3 Likes
40

Most points are a fever dream. I am truly sorry but none of this will happen.

41

I think this is a neat idea. Bash could be a STD focus boss killer with good CB and unlock some gear options. The multi-target main skill wouldn’t need CB as much for trash, but when you get to bosses you can bust out high level Bash.

Honestly the problem with making Bash beyond super early game though is how skill point starved Barb builds are. The masteries are like the OG synergy built in, then we have damage skills and actual synergy on top. For something like WW it might be reasonable, but even with your Taunt reduction I think Frenzy is still probably too point locked to go after it. But that may be okay, because it gives choices…

1 Like
42

How about giving Concentrate -5% target defense per level? With 20 hard points invested, this skill would have -100% target defense and seems very thematic…

  • Concentrate - now receives -5% target defense per level, increase max attack FPS from 9 to 7 and replace Bash synergy with Shout and adjust synergies as follows:
    • Battle Orders: +10% damage per level
    • Berserk: +3% magic damage per level
    • Shout: +8% damage per level

As both of you pointed out, what about making Bash a solid 1-point wonder against bosses for point starved Barb builds…

  • Bash - now grants +4% crushing blow at level 1 and increases +2% per level, increase flat damage to +3 (up from +1) and increase +3 per level (up from +1). In addition, attack rating starts at 50% (up from 20%) and increase at 10% per level (up from 5%)

Respectfully disagree. The developers made great balance changes in Patch 2.4, so this is within the limits of what has already been done. With enough support, I’m confident they would consider another round.

1 Like
43

the whole mechanics of this skill are messed up. Id be fine if the wind up time was only once per mob. but usually if you directly click on an enemy, you stop attacking after it dies, meaning you either multiply the wind up time per amount of enemies in a mob, or you click behind/before the enemies to aim, which feels awfull (and does not always work since other enemies run in your way). if they at least fixed that one to still be able to continue an attack if you started it on a direct click on an enemy, even after it dies, it would already help alot.

1 Like
44

Blade fury is pretty strong now if you hybridize it with other sources of elemental damage. The enchant change affecting ranged attacks works for all ranged attacks now. Meaning all elemental skill damage buffs ele ranged attacks twice (think facets).

So an eth crescent moon with lightning facets and dual dreams can be used to make a strong lightning bladefury sin now. Especially because -res works on traps (inc blade fury) now.

1 Like
45

Paladin is in dire need of skill support for 2 handed weapons. Charge, Sacrifice, Conversion are almost useless for PVM. Vengeance has too many synergies, you’re correct. As a melee Paladin it feels like you always end up using Zeal and a 1H weapon. Absolutely depressing.

  • I’ve said it many times before, Paladin need an equivalent buff skill for 2 handed weapon support only, that is a direct counterpart to HolyShield. It would promote 2h weapon use.

  • At this point I think they should completely rework Sacrifice or keep it but add either a cleave/splash effect or PhysToMagic damage conversion - which would actually further lower “damage to self” by converting phys to “x”. Also, allow Sacrifice to Crit/Deadly Strike.

  • Charge should be affected by the stat “% chance to pierce” so you damage all enemies you run through. If pierce doesn’t trigger, you stop at the enemy like normal. This would be an awesome skill for melee builds, trying to clear packs of enemies.
    Damage should be based on 2h weapon damage and Shield damage only - if you aren’t equipped with any of those two, you do no damage with charge. This way a naked pala can still use charge as a movement skill.

  • Vengeance, should be able to roll Crit/Deadly Strike before the elemental damage calculation takes place.

  • Conversion has to be reworked. I think Paladin deserves some kind of minion/summon skill, so a complete removal would be sad. I’ve always thought it would fit the Paladin, if he had some kind of skill, that could summon/create flying Swords to fight for him, similar to those flying Scimitars we see in Act2.
    D2R - 2.4 PTR - Paladin - Replace Conversion Idea - YouTube

I think we should try and promote more usage of Defensive Auras if possible. For example:

  • Add small % life regen per lvl to Prayer.
  • Use Defensive Auras as synergies for more skills, perhaps swap some around - to make people use these auras during leveling stages.
  • When Redemption trigger on a corpse, add a small aoe “corpse explosion” damage mechanic - either phys/fire or perhaps another dmg type. After all, Redemption is a lvl30 skill, it deserves to be better than it currently is.
1 Like
46

I don’t think so. The whole is choked out by synergies killing hybrid builds. This isn’t a full hotbar style of ARPG. Players use 1 or 2 maxed skills and then 1 point wonders, most builds only use 1 maxed active skill. Forcing points into skills that are either useless in their own right, or are useless to the rest of the build, is bad. 60 points of investment, over half of total points, for a main damage skill, which is what any build is going to use as the vast majority of their gameplay, is adequate. The classes have a lot of underexplored and ignored skills because of synergy investment siphoning away points.

If not reduced, most skills need either/or synergies. If you’re making a Frenzy barb, you can max out Double Swing or Taunt at 16% per level instead of 8%, but not both. Skills like Frenzy, like Vengeance that haves 80 or 100 hard points required to max out their damage need to be adjusted. Skill damage striated across bloated synergy counts is the worst design problem currently in D2. The majority of skills should be optimized at 40 hard points, with some requiring 60. Let players build hybrid again.