S5 - Buff Maul, Concentrate & Vengeance

General Discussion
1

I urge the developers to consider another round for improving lackluster melee skills for Season 5. Below are 3 skills that could use improvement and the proposed suggestions are hopefully sensible as to not drastically alter the design or fantasy.

Maul

  • Skill now cleaves and hits up to 2 adjacent enemies next to your primary target (50% damage penalty will be applied to adjacent enemies)

First, Maul’s single target damage makes battling large groups of enemies a slogfest. Werewolves have Rabies (which damages multiple enemies at once), so it makes sense to give an aoe aspect to the Werebears large cleaving claws.

Concentrate

  • Skill now ignores chance to block mechanic to greatly improve hit chance
  • Change Bash synergy to Iron Skin and adjust other synergies as follows:
    • Battle Orders: +12% Damage per level
    • Berserk: +2% Magic Damage per level
    • Iron Skin: +2% Block Chance per level

Second, similar to Berserk synergy change in Patch 2.4, it makes sense to do the same treatment for Concentrate in order to improve viability of this build. If you’re a Concenrate Barb, you’re going to want to use Iron Skin to maximize your defense. Adding chance to block to Iron Skin synergy strengthens this defensive-oriented character. Plus, with a name like Concentrate, it fits the fantasy to ignore chance to block mechanic to greatly improve hit chance.

Vengeance

  • Vengeance - now grants +1% IAS per level and the mana cost starts at 3 (down from 4) and increases at 0.15 per level (down from 0.25)

Lastly, Vengeance should have the high mana cost reduced while granting an attack speed bonus as to not change the identity of the skill, but simply make it better at what it does.

21 Likes
2

Simple and small positive changes. Please make it happen. :grinning:

6 Likes
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Maul
I like the idea of Maul having a small cleave, it would narrow the gap between werebears and werewolves in clearing groups since werewolves have Fury and Rabies. I think it also suits the fantasy of the werebear being a hulking, powerful beast.

Concentrate
In regards to Concentrate I’d rather not see more “always hit” skills, Impale was an exception because it’s so slow (even after the speed buff). It just seems like a “lazy” buff to me somehow and would render Conc barbs unfair in melee PvP (inb4 “PvP doesn’t matter” crowd).

I also think the buff to the synergies are overtuned as well, scaling off BO in the first place is already powerful considering how many barbs max the skill. The Berserk synergy buff would increase the max damage conversion rate to 60% at which point Concentrate becomes more attractive than Berserk itself because you get all the benefits (high damage, high defense, uninterruptable, leech from physical damage) without the penalties.

The Iron Skin synergy just further increases the already insane defensive bonuses, I don’t see the need. For the most part I think Concentrate is fine as is, a backup single target skill to complement other skills like Whirlwind or Frenzy when you need a bit more defense and/or to target down a specific monster.

Vengeance
In regards to Vengeance I initially did something similar in my mod, I removed the Salvation synergy and rolled it into the skill itself but just earlier today I reverted that change.

What I did instead was decrease the Resist Fire/Cold/Lightning synergies down to 8% from 10%, increased the Salvation synergy to 3% from 2%, and increased Vengeance’s elemental damage to 7% from 6%.

My idea was that buffing the Salvation synergy while weakening the other synergies would make a bit of a dilemma on which to pick, Salvation provides slightly more damage overall and spreads it among the three damage types but the other synergies focus on a single damage type, grant you passive max resistance to the respective element, and providing a greater synergy to the respective Holy Fire/Freeze/Shock aura (if you choose to use one, I suppose you probably wouldn’t over Conviction but the option would be there at least :sweat_smile:).

I think the attack rating is fine because of the bonuses you get from auras (either AR% from Fanaticism or -defense% from Conviction).

What could be changed I think is the mana cost, 4 base mana + 0.25 mana per level is quite steep and quickly adds up if you don’t have sufficient mana leech or regen. Insight and mana potions do exist but neither are particularly effective with a small mana pool and mana leech isn’t a common stat especially if you decide to use Vengeance when it first becomes available at level 18.

I think it’d be fair to reduce the baseline mana cost to 2.5 or 3 and the per level to 0.125 so that it doesn’t become so expensive so quickly.

1 Like
4

I’d rather not remove the Salvation synergy, as it makes a lot of sense to have it be a synergy for this skill if the other resistance auras are synergies.
The Vengeance skill is self-sufficient, so there’s not really a need to reduce the amount of synergies to make place for another skill. As is, you get to choose the most optimal within main skill, all 4 synergies, and an extra aura for defense or for offense (supposing your resistances are maxed out through your equipment).

What are your issues with the skill? My own is that you basically get a double-penalty for mana, with a high skill mana cost and reduced leach when compared to other melee skills.

1 Like
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In short:

  • I like Maul with cleave.
  • Concentrate add Ignore shield/block/evade chances instead Always hit. Berserk 2%/level. Iron skin 10%dmg/lvl or 2,5%ignore defense/level.
  • Vengeance just add less mana cost. Also add effect of every 3rd hit does 3,3yard elemental explosion.

Longer:

I like the Maul cleave. Will make me start bear druid after my first attempt that I abandonded it in act1. The uninterruptable effect they added is very nice feeling for tanky Bear, but it clears so slow its boring to play.

I think Concentrate as name suggest should really hit very precise. But Always hit IMO is too much. I think a golden middle solution would be some new mechanic that Concentrate Ignores Shield/Block chances. Also amazon evades, assassin claw blocks for pvp, can be interesting. And leaving ARating reliance as is. Attack rating is perfectly fine if blocks are removed and I think many barbs would go Concentrate barb builds as compared to nowadays noone does in public games.
This can drastically improve hit chance, as blocking is so often a stat on monsters and it would give Concentrate a distinct advantage over other skills, fitting the theme.
BO synergy 15%/level is aqequate.
Berserk just 2%/level max. Its a strange synergy to choose anyway.
I would change Bash synergy to your Iron skin or Shout synergy. In both cases I would give it 10% dmg/lvl OR a new synergy: -2,5% Target defense/level. Upto -50% Target defense maxed out. Stacking with Eth rune/items effects. Minus defense synergy coupled with Ignore block would result in almost always hitting, white it not being guaranteed.

I like Vengeance having one less synergy and more attack rating, altho AR is not necessary as Vengeance is coupled with Conviction that reduces monsters defense by 95% at max level. So you hit often.
What I would like you to add is less mana cost. That really is quite a nuissance. It can be solved by chugging mana potions nonstop, but its annoyance doesnt correspond to its power level.
I think also that Vengeance should have some AoE effect to it. I would like to see a chargeup strike in 3,3yards damage (as fireball) with all the elemental dmg added. Just every third hit automatically releasing AoE effect around paladin.

I did Vengeance playthrough upto lvl91 online from start to finish as Vengeance. And its damage is really good, no immunity issues also. Mana was solved by nonstop chugging potions and high manaleech. But the slow clear and specially areas like Flayer jungle when you get surrounded easily would benefit from AoE hit on every third strike. Its not like you kill every flayer around you every third hit… its like after 9 hits procing 3x AoE they actually may or may not be dead.

1 Like
6

Why should Vengeance stay a single target ability? Even if it did a million damage and always hit, it’d still suck compared to ranged or AoE skills (or, even worse, compared to ranged and AoE ones). Especially as an 80 skill points one.
I’d add an elemental AoE damage, either as a small aura-like radial one or proccing elemental missiles (like Fireball or Glacial Spike).

1 Like
7

The Maul change is fine. Put’s it in line with similar abilities in WoW. Sorts of a cross between Maul/Swipe from OG WoW Bears.

Concentrate I can’t agree with. If anything we need to remove Smite always hitting, not add a new smite. Concentrate would instantly become the S+ tier Uber slayer.

Concentrate is a skill that frankly should either be entirely left alone, and left useless, or reworked entirely. My two cents… give it block chance. An uninterruptable attack with block chance could at least be different enough to be interesting.

Vengeance to ever be useful needs to be faster. That’s about it.

1 Like
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Good feedback on how to buff Concentrate. I toned down BO synergy as to not make it overtuned. I really like idea to make skill ignore block chance to improve hit chance, fitting theme. Lastly, I added chance to block to IS synergy to make uninterruptable attack more interesting as suggested. Updated OP.

Concentrate

  • Skill now ignores chance to block mechanic to improve hit chance
  • Change Bash synergy to Iron Skin and adjust other synergies as follows:
    • Battle Orders: +12% Damage per level
    • Berserk: +2% Magic Damage per level
    • Iron Skin: +2% Block Chance per level

Good feedback on Vengeance and seems like the best way to buff skill is to simply reduce mana cost and add aoe effect on attack that deals flat elemental damage of each type. Updated OP.

Vengeance

  • Mana Cost now starts at 3 (down from 4) and increases at 0.15 per level (down from 0.25)
  • Skill has chance to create aoe effect (4.3 yards) on hit that deals flat elemental damage of each type
2 Likes
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Love the conc changes. Good idea.

2 Likes
10

Agreed. I really like EnTaro’s suggestion for having Concentrate ignore block mechanic to improve hit chance and fits the fantasy well. Jhaerik’s idea for adding block chance would also strengthen the identity of this character.

Concentrate
“A Barbarian trained in this skill learns how to focus his strength into a single blow that cuts through the guard of an enemy and slices through their armor.”

4 Likes
11

As a vengeance Paladin playing since v1.08 pvp and pve. I hate the idea of it being an aoe.

What I’d like to see are small changes. Vengeance mainly struggles aoe, But its fine not adding that. As it is suppose to be a strong 1 hit with all elementals.

Vengeance also struggles from

  • Chance of hit / Low attack rating (even with conviction on)
  • Attack speed
  • Able to be interrupted while attacking
  • Lack of +Elemental damage melee non weapon items. for example Ormus robe boosts up a good amount of elemental for vengeance but really sucks as a melee armor.
    Like you said removal of salvation synergy would be a good start.
  • Due to lack of ele melee items… let Enhanced damage from non weapon items should work fully or partially.

You can check this topic out.

12

I have lvl 91 Vengeance paladin. I playthrough with it from lvl 1. So I got good grasp on what it feels like to play and what I would change to do it better.

This is not an issue with attack rating specialy with Conviction on. Block chances of monsters are an issue of missing hits.

This is actually quite fixed in D2R. You get the stun immunity period, so you can hit pretty reliably. I compare it to the previous state when hit recovery blocked you completely from attacking.

For attack speed - yes it could hit faster, but it would not solve anything really.
For elemental dmg on armors - yes there are ton of unique sets rws to choose from, yet not actually much at the same time :). There is like Ormus robe, Nightwings veil, Flickering flame, Griffons, Hydra pala shield that boost element dmg. But it doesnt offer significant bonuses. And also if it did then it would break casters.

There is Gimmershred with best elemental damage bonuses. But its better to use BotD also for mana leech. I think if Famine rw would be made Indestructible, it would be best option for Vengeance paladin.

But as conclusion I think nothing of previous would help as much as Vengeance able to hit in AoE every third hit at least. It would create nice rhythm. I personally would like it and would sing in my head “1-2-boom, 1-2-boom,…” :slight_smile:

13

surely you have never pvpd.

if you want damage from armor you’d rather put 40/15max or 30 max jewels. you dont need insignificant elemental dmg from armor and waste a slot.

gimmershred is trash even with veng. Ebotdz is only thing that is okay on an avenger.

:rofl:

14

we have rabies?
lol WUT?
rabies is utter garbage outside of lvl 45 dueling.

the duration of rabies needs to be capped at 4-6 seconds, the damage itself is ok, but it gains duration with each point making the damage worthless.

also bear damage WAS good then they “bug fixed it”

the best weapon for rabies is Greif, because of the ignores targets def, life and mana after kill, ias, - poison res.

even with the absolute best gear, perfect bramble, trang gloves, 8 SS skillers, + skills ammy, +3 rabies metamophasis

you will still clear faster with basic attacks on said greif then with rabies

and then if that was fixed it could still using another synergy, ( i prefer dire wolf)

15

I havent pvp-ed with Vengeance paladin. That true. Noone does.

I just made point that there is no real armor options besides Enigma, etc.

On playthrough Gimmershred is nice enough. Of course not in the end…
You just repeated what i wrote, that BotD is better.

I dont know what you about in this reply…

16

Vengeance Buff, much yes

1 Like
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ofcourse you havent. actually there were pvp guilds dedicated to vengeance. until they rekt it.

pretty sure Adding aoe wont solve this skills basic flaws.

18

Thats your opinion. Mine is that it solves most of it.
Attack speed nor getting interupted or Grief not working was not an issue for me.
Slight mana issue.
Clearspeed biggest one.

Actually AoE hit should not affect PvP. It would be pure PvM buff. Then maybe I would see at least one Vengeance player in public game.

100 people 100 opinions. Peace

1 Like
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Again the only “real” way to buff melee skills, is to nerf casters lol. It’s not like I don’t play melee much because melee is “bad”, it’s just that aoe is always going to be faster if you enjoy clears.

20

Respectfully disagree. The developers can make sensible buffs to underperforming melee skills for next Season without ever touching caster skills. I think a small patch geared towards improving melee skills (in addition w/ a modest buff to base weapon damage, AR on superior weapons, STR bonus for two-handed weapons) would be a great step in the right direction.

1 Like