It’s because that’s the state of this in the current version of the game. The introduction of Hustle would start breaking that rule for those pair of items.
There’s plenty of other avenues that can be taken to address class balance and mid game options, so introducing something as drastic as BoS on Hustle is just not needed.
It was intended to be the other way around. Runewords were supposed to the bridge to high level, elite uniques, but somewhere along the way that got overtaken.
Correct. But instead of changing uniques to be more focused, it was easier to add new, even more powerful runewords. And here we are.
Oh lord no, Hustle has very little to do with fixing melee. It’ll fix bowazons, maybe Whirlwind barbs? Possibly druids, though I am unsure how the IAS works out on that, but they stack it to kingdom come so it stands to reason.
But fixing melee is ALL about melee splash damage and better melee weapons, specifically adding +maximum damage or changing the math formula. I think PD2 hit upon the solution to melee’s woes, but I’m pretty sure hirelings shouldn’t benefit from splash damage. That was a little too broken.
As a bow amazon player, I DO NOT want that this BoS-prebuff thing is a “must use” item to get the best rig.
Does not matter how easy/complicated to get WF/Faith/whatever. I do not want to be forced to use this because it is possible and everybody and her dog rely on using it
Then you are welcome to use Faith(or whatever else) for the fanaticism to decrease IAS reqs. You don’t have to use Hustle and Windforce. they are options!
Which is why I find the original argument so hypocritical; the op is arguing for less options that Hustle can provide, purely, I suspect, because he has a god-tier Faith that would likely decline in value (unless I miss my guess)
Though I do understand not liking the prebuff option; as a Sorc, I should use CTA, but I never bother to make one.
Then you are welcome to bow out of this thread like you claimed you would a few posts ago. You are not being productive here.
I explained in crystal clear terms my reasonings, but you clearly are unable to comprehend this or, I suspect, are choosing not to as you have some affinity for Windforce that when you seeing someone criticise the addition of Hustle when Blizzard have an abundance of other alternative options to explore, you still lose your marbles anyway.
PS: I am still using Windforce online right now - I chose to invest in a bunch of fire bowazon gear first - but I know the people that this impacts and the amount of time they put into farming for this gear. But yet you are seemingly taking pleasure in the thought that people are upset that their faiths will lose value over this change, I sincerely hope not.
WHAT IS THE POINT OF MIN MAXING, IF YOU ARE OVERPAYING FOR
40% LESS EFFECTIVE BUILD? XDDD
We are saying its dumb that the very common, basic unique Bow is the strongest Bow in the game. It makes all Bow runewords obsolete, it makes all items in the game that have +attack speed worthless (PB, ias/ed and ias/max jewels, Faith, Beast, 60/100+ armors, Treachery, magic tiara/diadem that is already socketed, 4-6/40 javs, rares with +IAS and many more)… Its not just the “RICH” players that lose here, its also normal players who farmed long for their first Faith bow, or Beast RW, or something else… and now all they have is worthless!
Not only that, Ladder will have 180* different mechanics & meta than Nonladder!
All your phys NL builds might be useless, unless Blizzard decides otherwise.
So… you cant farm phys build, because u already have it on Nonladder.
You cant keep the items on nonladder, but if you sell them, you might regret it too!
What a bad situation!
Its also terrible because for example, i farmed a few items on ladder, that i was waiting 6 months to have on nonladder… just to learn those items gonna be worthless when Hustle arrives. I can throw everything away, yeah, i sure feel like i wasted almost 1,5 year playing D2R, thanks for that!
…
So who benefits this situation the most?
Of course, as always… casters. Because now they can make phys build with just Shael Ko Eld, get a cheap Windforce and BOOM their bowazon is ready (or other phys build).
In the meantime nonladder phys builds are gonna go to trash.
I’ve read your original post and it’s quite concise, but this specific reply makes me think. Just what exactly is so bad about the change? I know you made your points, I’m not asking you to regurgitate them, but why is everyone so afraid of change?
Patches and seasons come and go, games change all the time.
Personally, I’m all for shaking up the dead waters.
Hustle is a buff for all characters and all builds involved this shakes up the end game bow meta by adding more choices and even helps faith out if you low roll your aura. Not to mention bear fireclaws druids desperately need this runeword to get acceptable frames. I don’t see blizzard removing it because a few people disagree with its implementation. Only a few people don’t want this in the game most think its going to be excellent as it has proven in testing.
Hustle weapon is by far the biggest concern. It’s not an interesting choice to add a cheap, easy to farm runeword that makes tons of other attack speed items obsolete.
That one 100% needs to be changed. It’s broken, boring and ruins the gearing journey for a ton of classes.
If anything, I’m asking Blizzard to put in more effort into providing the community with better quality and more comprehensive balance changes.
The Diablo 2 community have been asking for balance changes since the launch of D2R… but all of a sudden we’re laying back and accepting these runewords as what really is a sub par solution for balance? (which by the way still won’t solve our problems anyway)
We should be expecting better so we should be demanding better.
Actually, they could remove it because it goes so far out of scope of Blizzard’s intention for this runeword. If that’s what they decide to do, they certainly won’t just remove the BoS proc and leave it at that, they will substitute it with something else or do something else entirely.
For pure damage, we can compute the time it takes to kill hell baal (TTKB) with guided arrow as a good measure of overall damage. The competing builds we are talking about typically are
If all we care about is damage, the windforce faith is the best build, but is a bit clunky because of the act1 merc’s AI.
Faith GMB is second best, but it sacrifices a lot of survavibility for this. Really, the dps are the same between the 9 frames windforce and the 7 frames GMB faith, although the 9 frames feels slow, which is subjective (but real for most).
Now add hustle with BOS level 9.
With these calculations, with BOS level 9, there is indeed no practical reasons to build a faith, as the windforce build is better in almost all respects. This is because all builds will want to use Atma’s and fortitude, and we only need 15% ias in the helm.
I agree with OP that building a faith bow should have benefits, either in terms of flexibility (allowing a unique helmet, for instance a shako for MF), or DPS, or both.
However, BOS benefits the amazon in all aspects of her gameplay and is pretty well designed imho. It opens up many options and builds, as others have mentioned. I think BOS should be retained.
The solution is to reduce the level of BOS. In what follows is a table of extra IAS required to achieve 7 frames with a Windforce without faith:
With BOS of levels 3+, there is no real penalty of using Windforce in the endgame. With a level 2 BOS, 7 frames is still feasible with windforce only but it comes at a great sacrifice: either Fortitude needs to go, or it requires to have 20 ias in the amulet slot and 45 in the helmet, greatly reducing build flexibility. With Sunder charms, Atma’s is especially important and so fortitude will need to go. With this change, the TTKB is augmented to 4.20 with Amp, 12.50 without. It still outperforms the competition, but requires many more extremely expensive jewels and bases to reach these numbers, tremendously more expensive than perfect Faith, and it comes at the cost of survivability and flexibility.
It bears noting that the faith builds are slightly worse off with the proposed change, requiring 32 extra IAS (gloves + helm).
Finally, a level of BOS of 1 requires 138 IAS for the windforce build, against only 42 IAS for faith builds. It is still possible to attain, but is even more restrictive, and will fall behind the Faith build in all measures.
To summarize: it is my belief that if the level of BOS were to be limited to 1 or 2, users will prefer Faith over Windforce.
It is also my opinion that it is OK for faith to fall behind and not be used, and that a level 9 BOS could be tested for one season, with potential further nerfs down the road.
I don’t think it goes out of blizzards scope but it clearly does go out of your scope for this runeword. This runeword works wonders for other classes including the amazon i don’t see them removing this. Shifters benefit from this runeword the most and they desperately need this.
From Blizzard’s blog post. Diablo II: Resurrected PTR 2.6 | Has Ended — Diablo II: Resurrected — Blizzard News
Yea that’s referencing the armor not the weapon. Where is the comment on the weapon. Which anyway it already is providing what blizzard said more movement speed for builds that don’t use enigma. Yet again this runeword is an incredible buff for shifters and all physical builds and i don’t think it should be changed. We need ways to compete with casters speed wise and this is the best way to do it. If only one build could use hustle on swap i would agree with you and say its overpowered but the fact that everyone can use it makes it universally positive for all builds.
For pure damage, we can compute the time it takes to kill hell baal (TTKB) with guided arrow as a good measure of overall damage. The competing builds we are talking about typically are
If all we care about is damage, the windforce faith is the best build, but is a bit clunky because of the act1 merc’s AI.
Faith GMB is second best, but it sacrifices a lot of survavibility for this. Really, the dps are the same between the 9 frames windforce and the 7 frames GMB faith, although the 9 frames feels slow, which is subjective (but real for most).
Now add hustle with BOS level 9.
With these calculations, with BOS level 9, there is indeed no practical reasons to build a faith, as the windforce build is better in almost all respects. This is because all builds will want to use Atma’s and fortitude, and we only need 15% ias in the helm.
I agree with OP that building a faith bow should have benefits, either in terms of flexibility (allowing a unique helmet, for instance a shako for MF), or DPS, or both.
However, BOS benefits the amazon in all aspects of her gameplay and is pretty well designed imho. It opens up many options and builds, as others have mentioned. I think BOS should be retained.
The solution is to reduce the level of BOS. In what follows is a table of extra IAS required to achieve 7 frames with a Windforce without faith:
With BOS of levels 3+, there is no real penalty of using Windforce in the endgame. With a level 2 BOS, 7 frames is still feasible with windforce only but it comes at a great sacrifice: either Fortitude needs to go, or it requires to have 20 ias in the amulet slot and 45 in the helmet, greatly reducing build flexibility. With Sunder charms, Atma’s is especially important and so fortitude will need to go. With this change, the TTKB is augmented to 4.20 with Amp, 12.50 without. It still outperforms the competition, but requires many more extremely expensive jewels and bases to reach these numbers, tremendously more expensive than perfect Faith, and it comes at the cost of survivability and flexibility.
It bears noting that the faith builds are slightly worse off with the proposed change, requiring 32 extra IAS (gloves + helm).
Finally, a level of BOS of 1 requires 138 IAS for the windforce build, against only 42 IAS for faith builds. It is still possible to attain, but is even more restrictive, and will fall behind the Faith build in all measures.
To summarize: it is my belief that if the level of BOS were to be limited to 1 or 2, users will prefer Faith over Windforce.
It is also my opinion that it is OK for faith to fall behind and not be used, and that a level 9 BOS could be tested for one season, with potential further nerfs down the road.
All this because it makes faith worth “less”. Look at what it does for other builds than the bowzon. It is incredible for physical builds opening up major gear flexibility. And ill say again if your faith aura rolls low hustle on swap is still a net buff.
And look by how much Windforce is ahead, if the post’s math above is close. It’s almost trivial; The damage is off by approximately ~16%. in Diablo, that is a pretty close comparison and doesn’t require, you know, in excess of 70+ ber runes to make a 120/45ias helm just to play a physical bowazon, which is a GOOD thing.
I know right? People just can’t eat their cake and let others enjoy theirs lol. This level of bos makes werebear druids playable again after the severe nerf they took to their frames.
Bowazons benefit tremendously by BOS. All amazon builds, bar none, benefit from it. It only makes faith somewhat obsolete, but I don’t care too much, I always thought it a hassle to get faith. Replacing a hassle by a hustle is all fine by me.
Faith would still remain BIS on act1 merc for Ice bowazons, so even in this case it would not be entirely useless.
I’m excited to try hustle in seasons and would be disappointed if they nerfed it.
I am very excited to try hustle this season out on my bowzon i have planned for ladder start. I also will make shifter when i get more currency. Completely agree with what you said well stated.