Honestly, just having the buff effects immediately end if unequipped fixes the Metamorphosis issue completely and forces a choice between Hustle and CTA in terms of prebuffing.
100%
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While this is a valid suggestion, it may require changes to game mechanics that go beyond little changes to single (new) items. With too few time to do and test this, I do not see that this can be done properly and I do not want anything done rushed and with multiple side effects.
Apart from that, I do not want another prebuff item, so I am still with āremove BoS from Hustleā. I would not mind the oskills in CTA be removed, too, but I will never ask for this - in the state the game and item distribution already have. No nerfs please, but no additional OP āmidlevelā items, too.
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If they truly believe lvl 9 BoS will buff melee, put it on that worthless sunder charm and proc it on melee attacks and lose BoS if you donāt have melee equipped.
@Onadroig: Many thanks for the effort you have put in your comprehensive post with excellent vocabulary and structure. Honestly I appreciate what you and the other Zon veterans are doing for the community.
I will mainly comment on your conclusions for the hustle weapon, as I generally agree with the other aspects of your post.
I have to disagree on your perception of Faith in general. If I interpreted it correctly, you wish to keep Faith GMB as the go-to grail for the physical bowa, where I disagree.
Furthermore, the use, the mechanics and the damage output of a Multishot Faith GMB physical bowa is not compromised, reduced or lowered in any way, shape or form. It performs in the same manner it did before Hustle. In fact, even the Faith bowa receives a significant buff by pre-buffing with Hustle, as it needed 95 off-weapon IAS prior to the new runeword to hit 7fpa, now you require only 23 more IAS for the last BP on your gear, thus opening up to many more gearing options and relieving you from the obligatory use of the ridiculously expensive and (almost) never legitimately achievable 120/45 20 frw coronet.
For Helmets: You can now resort to gear options like a 40ed and dex socketed
- Gāface or
- Giant skull,
- 2os Blood Helmet with 10% DS, or if you are still hell bent on min maxing a
- 120/57 dex coronet.
Concerning the amulet: You can also now play around with
- Highlords,
- Atma,
- Catās Eye,
- Mara or even a
- Seraph with high demon and undead Ed,
- a strong Stat or
- crafted Amulet with high dex each.
If this change has done anything to the Faith bowa, it is giving more end-game options.
In my opinion is does not reduce the item choices, but greatly increases them.
Faith is far from redundant, the described potential problem seems to be of rather subjective nature and a personal bias towards Faith as a grail achievement, which it still is and will be with the implementation of the changes, alone for the massive boost to ar, helmet slot gearing options and the ITD, where WF is massively lacking, due to it still requiring 63 total IAS and therefore reducing the gear choices significantly when compared to Faith.
With Hustle pre-buff, one can now use wild item combinations and even new weapon-Runeword combinations like (for different builds, be it Freezing Arrow, Exploding Arrow, Multishot or Strafe):
- BotD Colossus Crossbow
- Upped, Ohmāed Buriza
- Mist Colossus Crossbow
- Faith Colossus Crossbow
- Mist GMB with 7 FPA MS
- Windforce with 7 FPA MS
- Ice GMB with max IAS BP
- HoJ and Phoenix GMB with max IAS BP
The physical builds can much more focus on damage on their off-weapon slots and sockets while the elemental zons can use facets and +skill gear over IAS items combined with higher damaging bases.
I highly advocate for the inclusion of Hustle with the BoS procc but also suggest slightly higher damage on it, so that Hustle itself will have a use in nightmare and early ladder hell, competing with Lycanders, Harmony and Insight bows.
5 Likes
Helmets are OP for their cost and could even be nerfed(except the poison one - buff this one, nobody dies to poison) Theyāre too good for a shael/io and only really have rockstopper being potentially better, but theyāre just too cheap for their cost. they dilute the entire loot pool from 31 to end game because you can easily force this runeword by nightmare countess.
if you play softcore, you can make this helm to make your playthrough easier, but the games so easy and death is a minor inconvenience that a 3ptopaz helmet is probably better. That doesnāt mean the helms arenāt overpowered at what they offer though in other areas, just they donāt fit what you do perfectly.
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I see where youāre coming from, but the problem with xbows is not the inherently slow speed, which you can work against.
The problem is that even at their absolute fastest they are 4 frames slower than regular bows. (11 fpa vs 7 fpa). That, unfortunately stacks up.
I understand that they deal more damage than regular bows to make up for this fact, but it feels like the small increase can not offset the slow pace. Speed is king in this game, no matter what way you look at it.
I feel like the xbows base values need a decent increase literally across the entire board.
This, of course, wouldnāt change the fact that the xbows are still stupidly slow, but if their damage can reach high enough levels that they can have roughly the same clearspeed with fewer, harder hitting attacks, then they might just become viable.
I donāt imagine that the devs would bother touching the AS BP tables, so this is the next best thing.
6 Likes
Tldr faith/enigma user nerfed but not really? Run walk wf/fort chads buffed. More options than just faith endgame the better.
3 Likes
This is the way. Completely agree.
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You could much more easily target the runes for Faith by running Travincal or LK. Your best bet for Windforce is Pindleskin at 1 in 19k odds at 500 MF. It isnāt even close.
I love your videos but completely disagree with your take here. Hustle is a direct buff to every single bow in the game and lowers the very high barrier to entry that bowazons face. It would make other bows more competitive like Eaglehorn, Mist, and Goldstrike Arch just to name a few. Faith has been the meta for 20 years, I think itās about time we shake it up and give other bows a chance to shine.
Hi guys, thanks for the responses so far. Good to see everyone keeping their cool in here, so Iām happy that has happened so far.
Thereās a lot to respond to, so I will distil my response down to addressing some of the common points raised, focusing on key points that hinge around the concerns raised.
Back to original post: PTR Feedback: Runeword's concerning approach towards class balance
Response to: Hustleās Burst of Speed proc will provide more options for bowazons that bowazons need
The main issue is neither:
- Bowazons donāt benefit from having Burst of Speed
- Bowazons receiving new buffs would negatively impact the game
The issue is very specifically: Thereās a bad side effect of granting specifically the Burst of Speed buff to bowazons and perhaps broadly other melee classes.
This example has been cited in the original post.
To clarify this point: Faith becomes redundant, not useless. Faith technically does get a 7.5% DPS boost from Hustle, but if the net result is a much more obtainable item such as Windforce out DPSās a Faith by not a small amount - by 16% - then thereās little reason to get a Faith bow other than because you want to, or want to do some weird flex.
This concern does not come out of any preference other than wanting to maintain some level of cohesion in item progression.
In short, Burst of Speed doesnāt just improve the road map towards an end-game experience, it hollows it out by also removing a practical upgrade option from Windforce to Faith.
With this in mind, the goal is to substitute the Burst of Speed proc with something that:
- provides the same positive benefits, but
- doesnāt bring that bad side effect of making Faith redundant
Which thereās an abundance of options that can be explored for achieving this exact goal.
Some of these options have been suggested in this separate post (still a draft)
Any of the combinations listed in this post can be explored.
Response to: There already is precedence that class identity is diminished in Diablo 2
Thatās true, and Iām not challenging that beyond saying that this adds to the pile that already exists.
For Hustleās Burst of Speed, it also has these nuances that donāt get respected and should not be taken lightly:
- Auras: the auras available require an active occupation of an item slot to keep active, and therefore do not spill over into other gear that the aura was not designed for ā Hustleās Burst of Speed doesnāt respect this rule
- Prebuffs: the buffs are not comparable to the same power as what the owning class has. CTAās Battle Orders is only a faction as powerful as a Barbarian specing into the skill. Many other prebuffs that exist are also of skills that have synergies and therefore are no where near as powerful as the owning class using them ā Hustleās Burst of Speed doesnāt respect this rule in that Assassins normally spec into Burst of Speed as a 1 point wonder (with +skills) due to heavy diminishing returns:
Level 9 Burst of Speed: +44% Attack Speed, +51% Movement Speed
Level 20 Burst of Speed: +52% Attack Speed, +61% Movement Speed
- Active skills: Teleport on enigma is perhaps the strongest precedent there is. However, with all things considered with how big of an impact the Teleport skill has on the Sorceressā overall efficiency and subsequently on other classes that wear Enigma, itās very hard pressed to say from a purely pragmatic point of view that the removal of Enigma is a good thing for the game, as the teleport skill is a 1 point wonder with no synergies AND is impossible to balance without breaking one of the Sorceressā main defining skills
- Power vs Expense: The power granted via Hustleās Burst of Speed proc is huge compared to the runes that it requires ā Hustleās Burst of Speed doesnāt respect this rule:
- The movement speed bonus out paces Harmonyās Vigor aura, which also requires a Ko rune and requires to be actively equipped
- The attack speed bonus out paces Faithās Fanaticism aura (even a perfectly rolled one), which requires much more expensive runes Jah and Ohm runes and requires to be actively equipped
- Comprehensive loss of identity: with the reasoning explained, the Assassin has comprehensively lost her identity with the prebuffs that she has available to her. The only prebuff option she has is Blade Shield, which very few Assassins already spec into
As suggested earlier, we are by far not out of options to explore to address class balance that we need to settle on leaving Hustleās Burst of Speed into the game.
Response to: Windforce is not easier to obtain than Faith
If weāre being literal, then it is technically possible to optimise your farming strategy around attaining the ingredients for Faith, but the same can be said for Windforce too.
If weāre using the middle of the line farming setup of 100% MF farming Chaos Sanctuary, then your chances of getting Windforce before rolling a Faith in a suitable +3 Grand Matron Bow is slightly slimmer in favour of getting the Windforce.
This widens modestly for any level 13+ Fanaticism aura Faith GMB +3.
And widens again significantly for any superior Faith GMB +3.
This is because the main factor that makes making a Faith GMB hard to obtain is the base itself, rather than the Jah and Ohm runes.
I hope this clarifies a lot of your feedback guys. Again, thanks for reading this far.
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I consider WF way easier to get than Faith because farming cows efficiently is available with cheaper gear than farming chaos safely/efficiently and also because with trading a cow run generates more wealth faster per run which a WF can be traded for as little as a Vex to Ist depending. Because I farm cows more often, Iāve found way more 4os +3 GMBs than WFs (3-4 vs 0). WF also has no damage variance whereas the runes to reroll a Faith could be traded for 10 WFs assuming you farmed the base for free (Jah-Ohm is about 25+6 ist, divided by 3 for Vex), 11-12 WFs if you also buy the base each time.
I donāt mind giving WF more power than Faith as long as the cost to do so exceeds the cost for faith. Just to be clear, this currently is not the case if the PTR goes lives without amendment. Iām already fairly resigned to it happening anyway.
My point in my previous reply about being more concerned that this was an oversight rather than an intentional buff being a harbinger of things to come still stands.
Granted, I understand why they did this, a lot of IAS gear is very specific and can be hard to farm without resorting to a teleport farming character. It does fix a lot of early game problems. I just think whoever designed this doesnāt play bowazon enough to know about the implications on late game. I looked at this and immediately drooled at the WF Bowazon implications.
3 Likes
But absolutely not redundant for an act 1 merc giving Fanaticism. The runeword still has use for an exclusive buff, and itās still pretty good to equip as well if you choose not to use āHustleā. Iām not buying this argument. Faith might have to change, but itās not replaced. I just wish there was a runeword armor for āMightā to eclipse Act 2 merc and shift value to Act 1 mercs wielding both Might and Fanaticism with high damage and piercing shots.
Iām just not buying Faith show be the best bowazon bow, the best Act 1 merc bow, AND the best source of fanaticism.
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I donāt see why a bowazon player would want to get a Faith for their merc over a Pride for an Act 2 merc, especially now that hustle would be in the picture. Pride is more affordable and together with Might is a huge damage boost that a Faith merc will never be able to out do.
If you already achieve 7fpa with Windforce + Hustle, a Faith merc will only add 144% enhanced damage to your build AND would be frustrating to use unless you also have Enigma.
2 Likes
You are still stuck in Bowazon mode. There are other classes in the game and Bowazons who will a) elect to use not use Hustle to prebuff or b) have a Windforce yet.
faith should not be the best runeword for all situations, thatās whatās WRONG with Diablo II. You are arguing hard to keep that true, but nobody is buying it. If I were to go out on a limb here, Iād probably guess you have a +3, 15% Faith GMB and are pretty biased in making sure itās the best bow for everything, bar none.
I understand your amazing Faith is gonna plummet in value. I feel for you, I really do. But there are other items in the game that should have niches. And when, finally, (though, if ever) blizzard smartens up and adds a Might aura armor, Faith and that armor will make A1 rogues the best merc, carrying Might and Fanaticism. It will trump Concentration and Might from Act 2.
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Then youāre deviating from the point; if Hustle is not in the picture because the player chooses to not use it, then that is not really in scope of a thread that talks about how broken it is for builds that would be optimised to use this runeword.
The fact that not every build ends up incorporating Hustle in its current form doesnāt really alleviate any of the concerns raised in this thread.
Isnāt windforce currently redundant/useless? Why is it ok for windforce to be but not faith? From what I can tell your argument is that windforce is more obtainable than faith and therefore should not be the BIS for a bowazon?
Have you heard of grief? Considering this item is available your argument is a little flawed.
Iām not trying to have a go at you and actually agree with you that BoS shouldnāt be on the runeword and available to other classes. I just think itās odd the reason is because it makes faith redundant, I see it as the only good thing that this runeword achieves is that it makes a rare unique weapon good again.
Faith will still have some uses on an act 1 merc as someone else has pointed out here.
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Windforce is not redundant, since itās a progression item towards Faith and thus fills a role. Itās still a very good weapon to use regardless if you decided to stop grinding for rarer gear and stick to Windforce.
I have - I have talked about Grief in my other thread here:
Just because the game contains items that are obviously overpowered for their investment level, doesnāt mean I endorse it. Thereās plenty of other examples that also need to be reviewed around rarity vs their power level.
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The hypocrisy is honestly rather breathtaking. Iām just gonna bow out before I choke to death on my laughter.
I just donāt think windforce should be the progression to faith, it was never intended to be that.
Agree with you on this, grief should require a higher rune than it does currently.
Also agree with this, power level of an item should be reflected by how hard it is to find/obtain but as you pointed out for some reason this isnāt the case in d2r so was wondering why is it important to follow that rule in this specific instance.
Iām still all for windforce being better than faith which is just personal preference but I donāt think hustle is the way to go to achieve this or to improve melee in general.
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