PTR Feedback: Runeword's concerning approach towards class balance

[Venaliter-1813]

@Onadroig-1677

The net result is, Faith becomes redundant to get for bowazons, which is very unfortunate.

But absolutely not redundant for an act 1 merc giving Fanaticism. The runeword still has use for an exclusive buff, and it’s still pretty good to equip as well if you choose not to use “Hustle”. I’m not buying this argument. Faith might have to change, but it’s not replaced. I just wish there was a runeword armor for “Might” to eclipse Act 2 merc and shift value to Act 1 mercs wielding both Might and Fanaticism with high damage and piercing shots.

I’m just not buying Faith show be the best bowazon bow, the best Act 1 merc bow, AND the best source of fanaticism.

[Onadroig-1677]

@Venaliter-1813

But absolutely not redundant for an act 1 merc giving Fanaticism. The runeword still has use for an exclusive buff, and it’s still pretty good to equip as well if you choose not to use “Hustle”.

I don’t see why a bowazon player would want to get a Faith for their merc over a Pride for an Act 2 merc, especially now that hustle would be in the picture. Pride is more affordable and together with Might is a huge damage boost that a Faith merc will never be able to out do.

If you already achieve 7fpa with Windforce + Hustle, a Faith merc will only add 144% enhanced damage to your build AND would be frustrating to use unless you also have Enigma.

[Venaliter-1813]

@Onadroig-1677

@Venaliter-1813

But absolutely not redundant for an act 1 merc giving Fanaticism. The runeword still has use for an exclusive buff, and it’s still pretty good to equip as well if you choose not to use “Hustle”.

I don’t see why a bowazon player would want to get a Faith for their merc over a Pride for an Act 2 merc, especially now that hustle would be in the picture. Pride is more affordable and together with Might is a huge damage boost that a Faith merc will never

You are still stuck in Bowazon mode. There are other classes in the game and Bowazons who will a) elect to use not use Hustle to prebuff or b) have a Windforce yet.

faith should not be the best runeword for all situations, that’s what’s WRONG with Diablo II. You are arguing hard to keep that true, but nobody is buying it. If I were to go out on a limb here, I’d probably guess you have a +3, 15% Faith GMB and are pretty biased in making sure it’s the best bow for everything, bar none.

I understand your amazing Faith is gonna plummet in value. I feel for you, I really do. But there are other items in the game that should have niches. And when, finally, (though, if ever) blizzard smartens up and adds a Might aura armor, Faith and that armor will make A1 rogues the best merc, carrying Might and Fanaticism. It will trump Concentration and Might from Act 2.

[Onadroig-1677]

@Venaliter-1813

You are still stuck in Bowazon mode. There are other classes in the game and Bowazons who will a) elect to use not use Hustle to prebuff or b) have a Windforce yet.

Then you’re deviating from the point; if Hustle is not in the picture because the player chooses to not use it, then that is not really in scope of a thread that talks about how broken it is for builds that would be optimised to use this runeword.

The fact that not every build ends up incorporating Hustle in its current form doesn’t really alleviate any of the concerns raised in this thread.

[fasthawk-11227]

@Onadroig-1677

To clarify this point: Faith becomes redundant, not useless. Faith technically does get a 7.5% DPS boost from Hustle, but if the net result is a much more obtainable item such as Windforce out DPS’s a Faith by not a small amount - by 16% - then there’s little reason to get a Faith bow other than because you want to, or want to do some weird flex.

Isn’t windforce currently redundant/useless? Why is it ok for windforce to be but not faith? From what I can tell your argument is that windforce is more obtainable than faith and therefore should not be the BIS for a bowazon?

Have you heard of grief? Considering this item is available your argument is a little flawed.

I’m not trying to have a go at you and actually agree with you that BoS shouldn’t be on the runeword and available to other classes. I just think it’s odd the reason is because it makes faith redundant, I see it as the only good thing that this runeword achieves is that it makes a rare unique weapon good again.

Faith will still have some uses on an act 1 merc as someone else has pointed out here.

[Onadroig-1677]

@fasthawk-11227

Isn’t windforce currently redundant/useless? Why is it ok for windforce to be but not faith? From what I can tell your argument is that windforce is more obtainable than faith and therefore should not be the BIS for a bowazon?

Windforce is not redundant, since it’s a progression item towards Faith and thus fills a role. It’s still a very good weapon to use regardless if you decided to stop grinding for rarer gear and stick to Windforce.

@fasthawk-11227

Have you heard of grief? Considering this item is available your argument is a little flawed.

I have - I have talked about Grief in my other thread here:

Practical Class Balance, Items and Uniques changes - feedback requested

Hi all, I normally don’t do this sort of stuff, but Blizzard have grasped at straws with the latest runewords and changes in patch 2.6. I’m looking to compile some sensible, practical and easy to implement balance change suggestions that can be taken to Blizzard for consideration. Ideally for patch 2.7 though highly doubtful. For now, consider this a draft or work in progress. The goal of the change suggestions The focus will be on making melee classes more comparable in power and efficie…

Just because the game contains items that are obviously overpowered for their investment level, doesn’t mean I endorse it. There’s plenty of other examples that also need to be reviewed around rarity vs their power level.

[Venaliter-1813]

@Onadroig-1677

@fasthawk-11227

Isn’t windforce currently redundant/useless? Why is it ok for windforce to be but not faith? From what I can tell your argument is that windforce is more obtainable than faith and therefore should not be the BIS for a bowazon?

Windforce is not redundant, since it’s a progression item towards Faith and thus fills a role. It’s still a very good weapon to use regardless if you decided to stop grinding for rarer gear and stick to Windforce.

The hypocrisy is honestly rather breathtaking. I’m just gonna bow out before I choke to death on my laughter.

[fasthawk-11227]

@Onadroig-1677

Windforce is not redundant, since it’s a progression item towards Faith and thus fills a role. It’s still a very good weapon to use regardless if you decided to stop grinding for rarer gear and stick to Windforce.

I just don’t think windforce should be the progression to faith, it was never intended to be that.

@Onadroig-1677

I have - I have talked about Grief in my other thread here

Agree with you on this, grief should require a higher rune than it does currently.

@Onadroig-1677

Just because the game contains items that are obviously overpowered for their investment level, doesn’t mean I endorse it. There’s plenty of other examples that also need to be reviewed around rarity vs their power level.

Also agree with this, power level of an item should be reflected by how hard it is to find/obtain but as you pointed out for some reason this isn’t the case in d2r so was wondering why is it important to follow that rule in this specific instance.

I’m still all for windforce being better than faith which is just personal preference but I don’t think hustle is the way to go to achieve this or to improve melee in general.

[Onadroig-1677]

@fasthawk-11227

so was wondering why is it important to follow that rule in this specific instance.

It’s because that’s the state of this in the current version of the game. The introduction of Hustle would start breaking that rule for those pair of items.

There’s plenty of other avenues that can be taken to address class balance and mid game options, so introducing something as drastic as BoS on Hustle is just not needed.

[Venaliter-1813]

@fasthawk-11227

@Onadroig-1677

Windforce is not redundant, since it’s a progression item towards Faith and thus fills a role. It’s still a very good weapon to use regardless if you decided to stop grinding for rarer gear and stick to Windforce.

It was intended to be the other way around. Runewords were supposed to the bridge to high level, elite uniques, but somewhere along the way that got overtaken.

@fasthawk-11227

I just don’t think windforce should be the progression to faith, it was never intended to be that.

Correct. But instead of changing uniques to be more focused, it was easier to add new, even more powerful runewords. And here we are.

@fasthawk-11227

but I don’t think hustle is the way to go to achieve this or to improve melee in general.

Oh lord no, Hustle has very little to do with fixing melee. It’ll fix bowazons, maybe Whirlwind barbs? Possibly druids, though I am unsure how the IAS works out on that, but they stack it to kingdom come so it stands to reason.

But fixing melee is ALL about melee splash damage and better melee weapons, specifically adding +maximum damage or changing the math formula. I think PD2 hit upon the solution to melee’s woes, but I’m pretty sure hirelings shouldn’t benefit from splash damage. That was a little too broken.

[Carcosa-2733]

As a bow amazon player, I DO NOT want that this BoS-prebuff thing is a “must use” item to get the best rig.

Does not matter how easy/complicated to get WF/Faith/whatever. I do not want to be forced to use this because it is possible and everybody and her dog rely on using it

[Venaliter-1813]

@Carcosa-2733

As a bow amazon player, I DO NOT want that this BoS-prebuff thing is a “must use” item to get the best rig.

Then you are welcome to use Faith(or whatever else) for the fanaticism to decrease IAS reqs. You don’t have to use Hustle and Windforce. they are options!

Which is why I find the original argument so hypocritical; the op is arguing for less options that Hustle can provide, purely, I suspect, because he has a god-tier Faith that would likely decline in value (unless I miss my guess)

Though I do understand not liking the prebuff option; as a Sorc, I should use CTA, but I never bother to make one.

[Onadroig-1677]

@Venaliter-1813

Then you are welcome to use Faith for the fanaticism to decrease IAS reqs. You don’t have to use Hustle and Windforce. they are options!

Which is why I find the original argument so hypocritical; the op is arguing for less options that Hustle can provide, purely, I suspect, because he has a god-tier Faith that would likely decline in value (unless I miss my guess)

Then you are welcome to bow out of this thread like you claimed you would a few posts ago. You are not being productive here.

I explained in crystal clear terms my reasonings, but you clearly are unable to comprehend this or, I suspect, are choosing not to as you have some affinity for Windforce that when you seeing someone criticise the addition of Hustle when Blizzard have an abundance of other alternative options to explore, you still lose your marbles anyway.

PS: I am still using Windforce online right now - I chose to invest in a bunch of fire bowazon gear first - but I know the people that this impacts and the amount of time they put into farming for this gear. But yet you are seemingly taking pleasure in the thought that people are upset that their faiths will lose value over this change, I sincerely hope not.

[c1nascimento-2707]

WHAT IS THE POINT OF MIN MAXING, IF YOU ARE OVERPAYING FOR
40% LESS EFFECTIVE BUILD? XDDD

We are saying its dumb that the very common, basic unique Bow is the strongest Bow in the game. It makes all Bow runewords obsolete, it makes all items in the game that have +attack speed worthless (PB, ias/ed and ias/max jewels, Faith, Beast, 60/100+ armors, Treachery, magic tiara/diadem that is already socketed, 4-6/40 javs, rares with +IAS and many more)… Its not just the “RICH” players that lose here, its also normal players who farmed long for their first Faith bow, or Beast RW, or something else… and now all they have is worthless!

Not only that, Ladder will have 180* different mechanics & meta than Nonladder!
All your phys NL builds might be useless, unless Blizzard decides otherwise.
So… you cant farm phys build, because u already have it on Nonladder.
You cant keep the items on nonladder, but if you sell them, you might regret it too!
What a bad situation!

Its also terrible because for example, i farmed a few items on ladder, that i was waiting 6 months to have on nonladder… just to learn those items gonna be worthless when Hustle arrives. I can throw everything away, yeah, i sure feel like i wasted almost 1,5 year playing D2R, thanks for that!

…

So who benefits this situation the most?
Of course, as always… casters. Because now they can make phys build with just Shael Ko Eld, get a cheap Windforce and BOOM their bowazon is ready (or other phys build).
In the meantime nonladder phys builds are gonna go to trash.

[Phobos-2872]

@Onadroig-1677

It’s because that’s the state of this in the current version of the game. The introduction of Hustle would start breaking that rule for those pair of items.

I’ve read your original post and it’s quite concise, but this specific reply makes me think. Just what exactly is so bad about the change? I know you made your points, I’m not asking you to regurgitate them, but why is everyone so afraid of change?

Patches and seasons come and go, games change all the time.

Personally, I’m all for shaking up the dead waters.

[Eisenheim-11246]

Hustle is a buff for all characters and all builds involved this shakes up the end game bow meta by adding more choices and even helps faith out if you low roll your aura. Not to mention bear fireclaws druids desperately need this runeword to get acceptable frames. I don’t see blizzard removing it because a few people disagree with its implementation. Only a few people don’t want this in the game most think its going to be excellent as it has proven in testing.

[Frankenberry-2448]

Hustle weapon is by far the biggest concern. It’s not an interesting choice to add a cheap, easy to farm runeword that makes tons of other attack speed items obsolete.

That one 100% needs to be changed. It’s broken, boring and ruins the gearing journey for a ton of classes.

[Onadroig-1677]

@Phobos-2872

Just what exactly is so bad about the change? I know you made your points, I’m not asking you to regurgitate them, but why is everyone so afraid of change?

If anything, I’m asking Blizzard to put in more effort into providing the community with better quality and more comprehensive balance changes.

The Diablo 2 community have been asking for balance changes since the launch of D2R… but all of a sudden we’re laying back and accepting these runewords as what really is a sub par solution for balance? (which by the way still won’t solve our problems anyway)

We should be expecting better so we should be demanding better.

@Eisenheim-11246

I don’t see blizzard removing it because a few people disagree with its implementation.

Actually, they could remove it because it goes so far out of scope of Blizzard’s intention for this runeword. If that’s what they decide to do, they certainly won’t just remove the BoS proc and leave it at that, they will substitute it with something else or do something else entirely.

[wiwh-2475]

For pure damage, we can compute the time it takes to kill hell baal (TTKB) with guided arrow as a good measure of overall damage. The competing builds we are talking about typically are

• Faith MB build: faith MB on self; act2 merc with pride. TTKB: 18.10
• Faith GMB build: faith GMB on self; act 2 merc with pride. TTKB: 15.28
• Windforce faith: windforce on self, act1 merc with faith: 14.66
• Windforce build: windforce on self, act2 merc with pride, reaching 9 frames, TTKB: 15.89.

If all we care about is damage, the windforce faith is the best build, but is a bit clunky because of the act1 merc’s AI.

Faith GMB is second best, but it sacrifices a lot of survavibility for this. Really, the dps are the same between the 9 frames windforce and the 7 frames GMB faith, although the 9 frames feels slow, which is subjective (but real for most).

Now add hustle with BOS level 9.

• Faith MB build: this goes down the drain, since both MB and GMB only require 9 additional ias and GMB simply has more dammage.
• Faith GMB build: only requires the gloves to be worn to reach 7frames. We gain fortitude, the helm can become anything and we can wear atma’s. TTKB: 4.91 sec with Amp Dmg, 14.51 without.
• Windforce faith: only requires the gloves to be worn to reach 7 frames. TTKB: 4.97 with Amp Dmg, 14.78 without
• Windforce build: windforce on self, act2 merc with pride, reaching 7 frames requires 63 ias, which is easy enough: 20 on gloves, 35 on windforce and 15 on the helm. TTKB: 4.11 with Amp Dmg, 12.22 without.

With these calculations, with BOS level 9, there is indeed no practical reasons to build a faith, as the windforce build is better in almost all respects. This is because all builds will want to use Atma’s and fortitude, and we only need 15% ias in the helm.

I agree with OP that building a faith bow should have benefits, either in terms of flexibility (allowing a unique helmet, for instance a shako for MF), or DPS, or both.

However, BOS benefits the amazon in all aspects of her gameplay and is pretty well designed imho. It opens up many options and builds, as others have mentioned. I think BOS should be retained.

The solution is to reduce the level of BOS. In what follows is a table of extra IAS required to achieve 7 frames with a Windforce without faith:

• BOS lvl 1: 138 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 2: 113 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 3: 99 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 4: 89 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 5: 80 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 6: 75 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 7: 70 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 8: 68 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames
• BOS lvl 9: 63 extra IAS needed to reach 7 frames

With BOS of levels 3+, there is no real penalty of using Windforce in the endgame. With a level 2 BOS, 7 frames is still feasible with windforce only but it comes at a great sacrifice: either Fortitude needs to go, or it requires to have 20 ias in the amulet slot and 45 in the helmet, greatly reducing build flexibility. With Sunder charms, Atma’s is especially important and so fortitude will need to go. With this change, the TTKB is augmented to 4.20 with Amp, 12.50 without. It still outperforms the competition, but requires many more extremely expensive jewels and bases to reach these numbers, tremendously more expensive than perfect Faith, and it comes at the cost of survivability and flexibility.

It bears noting that the faith builds are slightly worse off with the proposed change, requiring 32 extra IAS (gloves + helm).

Finally, a level of BOS of 1 requires 138 IAS for the windforce build, against only 42 IAS for faith builds. It is still possible to attain, but is even more restrictive, and will fall behind the Faith build in all measures.

To summarize: it is my belief that if the level of BOS were to be limited to 1 or 2, users will prefer Faith over Windforce.

It is also my opinion that it is OK for faith to fall behind and not be used, and that a level 9 BOS could be tested for one season, with potential further nerfs down the road.

[Eisenheim-11246]

I don’t think it goes out of blizzards scope but it clearly does go out of your scope for this runeword. This runeword works wonders for other classes including the amazon i don’t see them removing this. Shifters benefit from this runeword the most and they desperately need this.