I see where you’re coming from, but the problem with xbows is not the inherently slow speed, which you can work against.
The problem is that even at their absolute fastest they are 4 frames slower than regular bows. (11 fpa vs 7 fpa). That, unfortunately stacks up.
I understand that they deal more damage than regular bows to make up for this fact, but it feels like the small increase can not offset the slow pace. Speed is king in this game, no matter what way you look at it.
I feel like the xbows base values need a decent increase literally across the entire board.
This, of course, wouldn’t change the fact that the xbows are still stupidly slow, but if their damage can reach high enough levels that they can have roughly the same clearspeed with fewer, harder hitting attacks, then they might just become viable.
I don’t imagine that the devs would bother touching the AS BP tables, so this is the next best thing.
You could much more easily target the runes for Faith by running Travincal or LK. Your best bet for Windforce is Pindleskin at 1 in 19k odds at 500 MF. It isn’t even close.
I love your videos but completely disagree with your take here. Hustle is a direct buff to every single bow in the game and lowers the very high barrier to entry that bowazons face. It would make other bows more competitive like Eaglehorn, Mist, and Goldstrike Arch just to name a few. Faith has been the meta for 20 years, I think it’s about time we shake it up and give other bows a chance to shine.
Hi guys, thanks for the responses so far. Good to see everyone keeping their cool in here, so I’m happy that has happened so far.
There’s a lot to respond to, so I will distil my response down to addressing some of the common points raised, focusing on key points that hinge around the concerns raised.
Response to: Hustle’s Burst of Speed proc will provide more options for bowazons that bowazons need
The main issue is neither:
Bowazons don’t benefit from having Burst of Speed
Bowazons receiving new buffs would negatively impact the game
The issue is very specifically: There’s a bad side effect of granting specifically the Burst of Speed buff to bowazons and perhaps broadly other melee classes.
This example has been cited in the original post.
To clarify this point: Faith becomes redundant, not useless. Faith technically does get a 7.5% DPS boost from Hustle, but if the net result is a much more obtainable item such as Windforce out DPS’s a Faith by not a small amount - by 16% - then there’s little reason to get a Faith bow other than because you want to, or want to do some weird flex.
This concern does not come out of any preference other than wanting to maintain some level of cohesion in item progression.
In short, Burst of Speed doesn’t just improve the road map towards an end-game experience, it hollows it out by also removing a practical upgrade option from Windforce to Faith.
With this in mind, the goal is to substitute the Burst of Speed proc with something that:
provides the same positive benefits, but
doesn’t bring that bad side effect of making Faith redundant
Which there’s an abundance of options that can be explored for achieving this exact goal.
Some of these options have been suggested in this separate post (still a draft)
Any of the combinations listed in this post can be explored.
Response to: There already is precedence that class identity is diminished in Diablo 2
That’s true, and I’m not challenging that beyond saying that this adds to the pile that already exists.
For Hustle’s Burst of Speed, it also has these nuances that don’t get respected and should not be taken lightly:
Auras: the auras available require an active occupation of an item slot to keep active, and therefore do not spill over into other gear that the aura was not designed for → Hustle’s Burst of Speed doesn’t respect this rule
Prebuffs: the buffs are not comparable to the same power as what the owning class has. CTA’s Battle Orders is only a faction as powerful as a Barbarian specing into the skill. Many other prebuffs that exist are also of skills that have synergies and therefore are no where near as powerful as the owning class using them → Hustle’s Burst of Speed doesn’t respect this rule in that Assassins normally spec into Burst of Speed as a 1 point wonder (with +skills) due to heavy diminishing returns:
Level 9 Burst of Speed: +44% Attack Speed, +51% Movement Speed
Level 20 Burst of Speed: +52% Attack Speed, +61% Movement Speed
Active skills: Teleport on enigma is perhaps the strongest precedent there is. However, with all things considered with how big of an impact the Teleport skill has on the Sorceress’ overall efficiency and subsequently on other classes that wear Enigma, it’s very hard pressed to say from a purely pragmatic point of view that the removal of Enigma is a good thing for the game, as the teleport skill is a 1 point wonder with no synergies AND is impossible to balance without breaking one of the Sorceress’ main defining skills
Power vs Expense: The power granted via Hustle’s Burst of Speed proc is huge compared to the runes that it requires → Hustle’s Burst of Speed doesn’t respect this rule:
The movement speed bonus out paces Harmony’s Vigor aura, which also requires a Ko rune and requires to be actively equipped
The attack speed bonus out paces Faith’s Fanaticism aura (even a perfectly rolled one), which requires much more expensive runes Jah and Ohm runes and requires to be actively equipped
Comprehensive loss of identity: with the reasoning explained, the Assassin has comprehensively lost her identity with the prebuffs that she has available to her. The only prebuff option she has is Blade Shield, which very few Assassins already spec into
As suggested earlier, we are by far not out of options to explore to address class balance that we need to settle on leaving Hustle’s Burst of Speed into the game.
Response to: Windforce is not easier to obtain than Faith
If we’re being literal, then it is technically possible to optimise your farming strategy around attaining the ingredients for Faith, but the same can be said for Windforce too.
If we’re using the middle of the line farming setup of 100% MF farming Chaos Sanctuary, then your chances of getting Windforce before rolling a Faith in a suitable +3 Grand Matron Bow is slightly slimmer in favour of getting the Windforce.
This widens modestly for any level 13+ Fanaticism aura Faith GMB +3.
And widens again significantly for any superior Faith GMB +3.
This is because the main factor that makes making a Faith GMB hard to obtain is the base itself, rather than the Jah and Ohm runes.
I hope this clarifies a lot of your feedback guys. Again, thanks for reading this far.
I consider WF way easier to get than Faith because farming cows efficiently is available with cheaper gear than farming chaos safely/efficiently and also because with trading a cow run generates more wealth faster per run which a WF can be traded for as little as a Vex to Ist depending. Because I farm cows more often, I’ve found way more 4os +3 GMBs than WFs (3-4 vs 0). WF also has no damage variance whereas the runes to reroll a Faith could be traded for 10 WFs assuming you farmed the base for free (Jah-Ohm is about 25+6 ist, divided by 3 for Vex), 11-12 WFs if you also buy the base each time.
I don’t mind giving WF more power than Faith as long as the cost to do so exceeds the cost for faith. Just to be clear, this currently is not the case if the PTR goes lives without amendment. I’m already fairly resigned to it happening anyway.
My point in my previous reply about being more concerned that this was an oversight rather than an intentional buff being a harbinger of things to come still stands.
Granted, I understand why they did this, a lot of IAS gear is very specific and can be hard to farm without resorting to a teleport farming character. It does fix a lot of early game problems. I just think whoever designed this doesn’t play bowazon enough to know about the implications on late game. I looked at this and immediately drooled at the WF Bowazon implications.
But absolutely not redundant for an act 1 merc giving Fanaticism. The runeword still has use for an exclusive buff, and it’s still pretty good to equip as well if you choose not to use “Hustle”. I’m not buying this argument. Faith might have to change, but it’s not replaced. I just wish there was a runeword armor for “Might” to eclipse Act 2 merc and shift value to Act 1 mercs wielding both Might and Fanaticism with high damage and piercing shots.
I’m just not buying Faith show be the best bowazon bow, the best Act 1 merc bow, AND the best source of fanaticism.
I don’t see why a bowazon player would want to get a Faith for their merc over a Pride for an Act 2 merc, especially now that hustle would be in the picture. Pride is more affordable and together with Might is a huge damage boost that a Faith merc will never be able to out do.
If you already achieve 7fpa with Windforce + Hustle, a Faith merc will only add 144% enhanced damage to your build AND would be frustrating to use unless you also have Enigma.
You are still stuck in Bowazon mode. There are other classes in the game and Bowazons who will a) elect to use not use Hustle to prebuff or b) have a Windforce yet.
faith should not be the best runeword for all situations, that’s what’s WRONG with Diablo II. You are arguing hard to keep that true, but nobody is buying it. If I were to go out on a limb here, I’d probably guess you have a +3, 15% Faith GMB and are pretty biased in making sure it’s the best bow for everything, bar none.
I understand your amazing Faith is gonna plummet in value. I feel for you, I really do. But there are other items in the game that should have niches. And when, finally, (though, if ever) blizzard smartens up and adds a Might aura armor, Faith and that armor will make A1 rogues the best merc, carrying Might and Fanaticism. It will trump Concentration and Might from Act 2.
Then you’re deviating from the point; if Hustle is not in the picture because the player chooses to not use it, then that is not really in scope of a thread that talks about how broken it is for builds that would be optimised to use this runeword.
The fact that not every build ends up incorporating Hustle in its current form doesn’t really alleviate any of the concerns raised in this thread.
Isn’t windforce currently redundant/useless? Why is it ok for windforce to be but not faith? From what I can tell your argument is that windforce is more obtainable than faith and therefore should not be the BIS for a bowazon?
Have you heard of grief? Considering this item is available your argument is a little flawed.
I’m not trying to have a go at you and actually agree with you that BoS shouldn’t be on the runeword and available to other classes. I just think it’s odd the reason is because it makes faith redundant, I see it as the only good thing that this runeword achieves is that it makes a rare unique weapon good again.
Faith will still have some uses on an act 1 merc as someone else has pointed out here.
Windforce is not redundant, since it’s a progression item towards Faith and thus fills a role. It’s still a very good weapon to use regardless if you decided to stop grinding for rarer gear and stick to Windforce.
I have - I have talked about Grief in my other thread here:
Just because the game contains items that are obviously overpowered for their investment level, doesn’t mean I endorse it. There’s plenty of other examples that also need to be reviewed around rarity vs their power level.
I just don’t think windforce should be the progression to faith, it was never intended to be that.
Agree with you on this, grief should require a higher rune than it does currently.
Also agree with this, power level of an item should be reflected by how hard it is to find/obtain but as you pointed out for some reason this isn’t the case in d2r so was wondering why is it important to follow that rule in this specific instance.
I’m still all for windforce being better than faith which is just personal preference but I don’t think hustle is the way to go to achieve this or to improve melee in general.
It’s because that’s the state of this in the current version of the game. The introduction of Hustle would start breaking that rule for those pair of items.
There’s plenty of other avenues that can be taken to address class balance and mid game options, so introducing something as drastic as BoS on Hustle is just not needed.
It was intended to be the other way around. Runewords were supposed to the bridge to high level, elite uniques, but somewhere along the way that got overtaken.
Correct. But instead of changing uniques to be more focused, it was easier to add new, even more powerful runewords. And here we are.
Oh lord no, Hustle has very little to do with fixing melee. It’ll fix bowazons, maybe Whirlwind barbs? Possibly druids, though I am unsure how the IAS works out on that, but they stack it to kingdom come so it stands to reason.
But fixing melee is ALL about melee splash damage and better melee weapons, specifically adding +maximum damage or changing the math formula. I think PD2 hit upon the solution to melee’s woes, but I’m pretty sure hirelings shouldn’t benefit from splash damage. That was a little too broken.
As a bow amazon player, I DO NOT want that this BoS-prebuff thing is a “must use” item to get the best rig.
Does not matter how easy/complicated to get WF/Faith/whatever. I do not want to be forced to use this because it is possible and everybody and her dog rely on using it
Then you are welcome to use Faith(or whatever else) for the fanaticism to decrease IAS reqs. You don’t have to use Hustle and Windforce. they are options!
Which is why I find the original argument so hypocritical; the op is arguing for less options that Hustle can provide, purely, I suspect, because he has a god-tier Faith that would likely decline in value (unless I miss my guess)
Though I do understand not liking the prebuff option; as a Sorc, I should use CTA, but I never bother to make one.
Then you are welcome to bow out of this thread like you claimed you would a few posts ago. You are not being productive here.
I explained in crystal clear terms my reasonings, but you clearly are unable to comprehend this or, I suspect, are choosing not to as you have some affinity for Windforce that when you seeing someone criticise the addition of Hustle when Blizzard have an abundance of other alternative options to explore, you still lose your marbles anyway.
PS: I am still using Windforce online right now - I chose to invest in a bunch of fire bowazon gear first - but I know the people that this impacts and the amount of time they put into farming for this gear. But yet you are seemingly taking pleasure in the thought that people are upset that their faiths will lose value over this change, I sincerely hope not.