I am not sure if this is part of the current PTR or not, but PLEASE PLEASE dont make runewords (or any items) that are coming out as part of a patch release ladder only!!!
New content shouldn’t be only for game-mode played. I have had a lot of pushback on this on things such as:
It’s been like this for years
It’s an economy reset
It’s a way to bring incentive to ladder and play it
Quit your whining noob (lol)
But seriously, hear this out.
You label ladder (non-hardcore) as casual D2 in a previous patch note for 2.4.
You label ladder as a “race” to 99 and a “rush”
Ok, fine.
So why, would you not initially include new content (which we are ALLLL excited about) to all players?
If you label ladder play as such, then you are focused on reaching 99, not theory crafting, looting and creating various builds.
If the argument is you want to stay to the true Diablo 2, then why did you also consider bringing in rune words to single-player also then? (this was not original d2 implementation)?
If single player gets new content initially, then why shouldn’t non-ladder characters?
EVERYONE should get new updated items!! Only the top 1% will have a chance to play with builds and new characters all within 4 months time, so in 4 months people will enjoy new items and most likely ponder their characters and say…man i wish i had this on my non-ladder character which we all play right now…
Speaking of right now, we all love the d2R you have brought back to us! The complaints are not items mainly. The majority are things like chat is broken, GUI’s need improved, Lobbys need filters, server crashes , etc.
Please consider bringing the content to ALL players of your game initially, otherwise we are always behind on non-ladder for 4 months and it’s very discouraging. Anyways, like i said, i will get pushback, but i hope you developers read this as an original d2 player, who by the way played well before runewords on battle.net and i never felt more “forced” to change to ladder just to enjoy content.
Otherwise, good work on this game! It’s way better than D3 lol.
If all the content is available in NL immediately, you can just immediately build all the runewords with runes you’ve already saved up. You’ll experience all the new content in an afternoon, if not a matter of hours. Boring. By making it ladder only, if you want to experience it you have to earn it, struggling to get those precious runes in an environment where few exist. It also means runewords that are meant for leveling have a chance to shine instead of getting ignored - in NL all your characters are high level, and any new characters can be cheaply rushed.
You aren’t being excluded. Playing ladder is exactly the same as playing NL was on release. If you enjoyed that experience then good news - you get to do it again but with some tweaks to keep it interesting.
As much as I would like to agree with this sentiment, honestly I think having some ladder exclusive items is healthy for the game. Ladder exclusive items are a low effort way to encourage replaying through the game and increase the longevity of the player-base. While this is not the case for everyone, the vast majority of players will burn out and leave if they are not encouraged to make a new character once in a while. Without ladder and the exclusive runewords, it could be easily argued that the original D2 would have fizzled out hard as a game and D2R would have never been a consideration. It is all about encouraging player retention.
I am not saying the exclusivity is a perfect solution to keeping player retention and replay-ability up, but better solutions require much greater investment from Blizzard than they are likely willing to commit to. It is the method that has been successful in the past and one of the pillars of the game’s pull for people to keep playing and coming back.
Additionally, I would argue that non-ladder is never “behind” ladder, even with ladder-only runewords. With the economy being well-established on non-ladder, there are FAR better items there with much more stable pricing. You only have a limited amount of time to accumulate gear on ladder as it stands, and Blizzard is shortening the ladder schedule in D2R as well.
Ok both of you bring good points essentially saying that without doing ladder specific rune words to ladder, would make the game stale.
I agree only because they aren’t introducing new runes. Only words.
Collecting the thoughts so far:
doing what they are doing is low efforted and not perfect. But its their solution as of now.
non ladder is behind ladder. Otherwise they wouldn’t have the “special stash” at the end of the ladder directly giving your non-ladder characters loot from ladder.
every once in a while is not 4 months. Thats pretty often i doubt you can have more than 2 or 3 chars maxed by then AND runewords.
I agree its not a perfect solution, but dang I wish it was something else other than leaving content behind for non ladders. But I respect the responses. Well said yall.
What’s the point of ladder if there’s new content then?
I understand your sentiment but then, what would you “allow” to introduce on Ladder?
If not new runewords, would you be ok adding new uniques?
Or rework some items to work differently, like BK 1.08 vs 1.09?
Don’t get me wrong, but if new items are the only reason for you to play ladder, then you don’t need to play ladder. Just delete your characters with every update and create new ones. Same thing!
But also think about the players that have a healthy real life, and will never reach lvl99, ladder or not, but that love their toons. Most of the players won’t find the Ber rune e.g. for CoH, let alone Jah and Ber for Enigma before a ladder ends. Before they reach their goal, their toons get worthless.
Imagine: Hey! You want new Items? Play ladder!! Hey, you got your Ber rune! Great, build your CoH, and by the way: next week is new ladder! New items!! Unfortunately, you won’t get what you want before the ladder is over again, but hey, better luck in the next ladder!
In original D2, every ladder reset was a reason for me to leave the game for years. I even switched to illegal, private Servers to get the full experience without ladder resets.
When D2R came out, I loved the fact, that all former ladder only items are now available in non ladder. And now this?
I have zero interest in competition and regular defacement of my toons, but I’ve paid the full price for the game, so please let all of us play the way we like.
Wanna die hard? Play hardcore. Wanna compete? Play ladder. Wanna do PvP? Play PvP. You do you. But always keep in mind, that people with less time also want to reach their goals.
I’m not just playing for the new items. I’m also playing for the economy reset.
It’s an issue of motivation. Sure I could just delete my characters and start over for no reason. There is some fun in that…but there’s no motivation for me to do so, so I’m not gonna do it. Having some new items to go get gives me a reason, which makes doing it a lot more fun. Once I have those items, the reward is that I’ll get to use them on my higher-level NL characters when reset happens.
Anyway, if you wanna play slow and casual, no problem. You can get all the same items if you just wait for the ladder to roll over. It’s only 4 months delay. Why are you talking about CoH and Enigma anyway? You can build those already. Why would that be your target for the ladder? If your goal is to get the new stuff, get the new stuff. Odds are, most of it will be a lot easier to acquire than enigma (hopefully).
Always been this way, reward for the grind! The non-ladder players will get access in 4 months when the ladder ends, and so on and so forth. NL players will get their chance at these runewords, all the other changes to balance and mercenaries and such should be on NL right away just gotta wait 4 months for those runewords to be brought over than i think after that they say u can make them in NL.
So you are saying you don’t want new content for ladder at all, basically because you don’t want or have the time to do everything from zero.
Ok let me tell tou why, for me (and all my D2R group) ladder is amazing.
I work and I have a family so I don’t play 40 hours a week.
I just say that so you understand where I am coming from; I am not a guy who has the time to play as much I would like but that’s absolutely fine, d2 is easy and I can get everything I want anyway, so… not an issue.
Ladder means new economy.
So your non-ladder stuff is worth a fraction compared to ladder.
You might not liking that BUT it’s actually very good for casual players.
Ex:
What if you find a shako in day 2 of ladder?
Or a Jah?
That’s a good trade right there!
Imagine finding a jah in non-ladder…
Now, the “new content” is just an incentive for people to play it.
If there was not such incentive then nobody would play it.
You can say you don’t want it, and you don’t like it, but you have to admit that is absolutely necessary for the game longevity.
Ofc, you want runewords immediately and you don’t want to wait 4 months?
Understandable but you’ll have to swallow that pill, because is for the greater good.
We can keep talking about it for hours and “ladder only” stuff will never go away.
I am actually hoping we’re getting even MORE exclusive content!
Seasonal content, patch only content, you name it.
Diablo 2 is NOT about killing demons.
It’s a collection game.
yup, that’s what he’s saying. him and many others don’t like putting in hundred if not thousands of hours only to be put into a position where you either throw out all that time progressing or be forced into a 4-month item time gate.
cringe.
sure, non-ladder items wont be worth as much, in d2jsp economy… is that why you’re excited?
pretty sure shako is cheaper now than at launch which is better for the ‘casual player’
and im pretty sure a jah is still worth a jah if you found one…
sooo to me it sounds like you and your d2r group are excited moreso for d2jsp reset, than you are for the actual games economy reset.
if no new content came, and it was only ladder, people would still play it… this is a horrible take. really? no one would play it?
uhhh necessary for the games longevity? well I know that’s false.
sounds like you understand that waiting 4-months is dumb… but your reasoning that it’s ‘for the greater good’ is also just as dumb.
and lastly,
to me d2 is very much about killing monsters, infact without that step im not sure how much of a game would exist. how else do you plan on collecting your things?
The thing is All ladder content becomes available at the next ladder reset. So when the Current Ladder goes to Non-Ladder all the Ladder-Gated content (runewords and such) are now craftable in non ladder as well. so the only stuff that you don’t get to participate in is the Current New Shiny of the ladder. Ladders have been said to be 4 month rotations now. So if the Developer update for 2.4 is to be believed than you also have access to the same stuff just with a 4 month delay. So if you want all the new shiny things, then participate in the ladder. If you play so casually that the ladder doesn’t seem like something you want to sink time into then chances are you don’t play enough to have that 4 month wait really matter.
I want to agree with you, I really do. You have some great arguments from a casual to semi-casual perspective, but remakes/remasters, like their OG counterparts, are held up by those that invest a LOT of time into the game. Casual players come and go, while semi-casual players face intense burnout (I would personally consider myself semi-casual to slightly more than that, for reference), but to be frank, casual players did not keep this game going.
One additional thing worth considering is how ladder exclusives impact new and returning players. When a new ladder comes around, new/returning people can not only have a more level playing field, but the chance to obtain exclusive items that make their casual stint more rewarding. Items are worth SIGNIFICANTLY less in non-ladder, so if everything is available there, starting there from the get-go would be an uphill battle.
The last thing I want to say in favor of ladder exclusives is the economic impact it has had and will continue to have on the game. Ladder exclusives keep the market fluctuating over the long run. Every four months, the economy is restimulated by harder to obtain items and everything in the market adjusts for that. If everything is always available, the excess supply continuously drives the market downwards and doesn’t allow for demand to catch up. That isn’t healthy for the game long term.
To reiterate, I don’t think ladder exclusives are the best option. I think that Blizzard could devote development time into continuously creating new content and/or constant balance adjustments to constantly stimulate the game, but that costs a lot of money and time. Ladder exclusives aren’t as good but adding a couple runewords to ladder takes orders of magnitude less investment from a development and business perspective. It is the “bang for the buck” method.
Consider Path of Exile as an example. If that game had all Standard all the time with occasional new items, they would have flopped HARD within a year or two. They have both additional regular content and exclusive “ladder/league” items and they invest significantly more money into PoE than Blizzard will D2R.
It’s been nice to hear all these perspectives, but i really really dislike the fact that “the economy” has been a reason for this argument. D2JSP (and other trade market spammers) is NOT the reason why diablo 2 should exist.
The incentive should be about fun and I have come across games where people give free items and or trade for what they need instead of abiding by money to game market economies. Essensially runes have become the game currency. Be all this that it may, i do a agree that a Jah or a Ber is a Jah or a Ber (ladder or not to a player seeking this item). If the concern is value on a money making website, then I personally don’t find that as a valid reason for a good game.
i agree. its stupid to wait 4 months for items and gear and stuff to hit non ladder 4 months.
this game is a remaster from 20 years ago. most people playing now are old who work and dont have all the time in the world to play. most people who wanted a remaster was the ones who honestly liked it and cared about it and about what it could grow and evovle into, most of us where probably younger in highschool or around there and had a lot of time to play.
so to force players to try new things go play ladder. this game probably isnt that big of a thing. to try to pull new players into it.
I know to keep creating new content for ladder which is still a race to 99. like new areas. maps balance changes to existing skills. the core game of fighting should be about the change so people can experience it fresh.
also the ones who say you can do it on nonseason with runes. if you going to have time when ladder drops to theory craft builds while the top racers are already blasting then your not in it for the race are you?
there are also so many games out there. times are hard for most and time isnt a luxury for us all. so we all choose what game to spend our time on. if you want us to value this game over others then they need to allow casuals a shorter time period i would say 1 week to a month at least. not 4. blizzard needs to rethink how they choose to add stuff to ladder and nonladder. who really is going to waste time a few hours to get the items on ladder or to wait for them to come to non season and rinse and repeat. its an outdated system.
you should be using balancing changing skills adding areas. like maps or changing monster levels in areas. expand on the base game. or bring in new characters for long term.
those are examples of how to extend this game not just use items gated behind ladder
